coldel Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Whats the actual question you are raising there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, coldel said: Whats the actual question you are raising there? What do you make of the Bolivias salt flats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Just now, davey_83 said: What do you make of the Bolivias salt flats? They look cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Exactly, cool indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Has the Roadster passed the earth at night as yet, I wanna see Vegas or Toyko at night - would look cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 59 minutes ago, davey_83 said: What do you make of the Bolivias salt flats? It's the coolest natural place I've ever been. If you ever get the chance to go, do it! Stay in a salt hotel, watch the astonishing night sky (with zero light pollution) then get really drunk on the local booze and annoy the Swiss couple you're travelling with by being incredibly slow to get up at 5am, with a horrible hangover, to go and watch the sun rise. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, coldel said: How can total eclipses happen if the earth is not circular, and when they do they are circular in shadow and not eliptical? Why do I see ships sail away from me and sink into the sea if its flat? From what I remember from Physics GCSE was that very large things with mass generate gravity at their centre, if the earth were flat would we not all be pulled sideways to the middle not downwards? And of course any one travelling into space is under instruction never to say the world is flat, somehow this has managed to have been applied to anyone from James May in a U2 to every astronaut ever that has gone up there from any country? A total eclipse can happen regardless of the shape of the earth. A round object casing a shadow on a spherical one, would show a elliptical shadow as the shadow begins to wrap and follow the shape of the globe. Ships that sail over the horizon appear to show a globe earth, however a strong zoom lens brings the object back into view. That would be impossible if the ship went over the curve. Also the ship should sail up the curve and then down the other side. The nature of gravity was confirmed when the light from stars were found to bend due to the gravitational forces from the sun during a total eclipse in the 1910's hhmmmmmm OK. Info from NASA has its limitations due to green screen. Pretty sure Bruce Willis went to space too, I saw the footage and everything. The Antarctica peace treaty shows governments can work together despite what scandals come up during an election. Edited February 12, 2018 by davey_83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I'm fairly certain you see the tallest part of the ship first, ie the mast/antennae before you can see where the hull meets the water. Plus the higher you get the more distance is added to your horizon. At sea level/ on a perfect flat the horizon is always roughly 3 miles away, add height you add distance. For an observer on the ground with eye level at h = 5 ft 7 in (1.70 m), the horizon is at a distance of 2.9 miles(4.7 km). For an observer standing on a hill or tower 100 feet (30 m) in height, the horizon is at a distance of 12.2 miles (19.6 km). The formula in km is the square route of eye night x 1.5. This wouldn't be the case on a flat earth, your horizon would be determined by land mass in the distance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) Folks have used high end lasers across serval miles (7.5miles) of frozen lake and it shows to be flat shore to shore. This should not be possible using the globe model as there should be cicra 20ft of curve bend. Edited February 12, 2018 by davey_83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Just for absolute clarification, are you telling us you believe the Earth is flat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Pretty sure he doesn't Dan. The laser thing is intriguing as in theory placed on a perfect flat it should point out into space. I guess the only way to be sure would be to place the receiver in space and have the laser on the true north. I think the minuscule size of the planet compared to laser pointer size will justify the frozen lake experiment but flushes my horizon equation out the water as in theory a laser at 6ft high and a receiver over 3 miles away wouldn't pick it up. Interesting. It's still round though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 1 hour ago, davey_83 said: A total eclipse can happen regardless of the shape of the earth. A round object casing a shadow on a spherical one, would show a elliptical shadow as the shadow begins to wrap and follow the shape of the globe. Ships that sail over the horizon appear to show a globe earth, however a strong zoom lens brings the object back into view. That would be impossible if the ship went over the curve. Also the ship should sail up the curve and then down the other side. The nature of gravity was confirmed when the light from stars were found to bend due to the gravitational forces from the sun during a total eclipse in the 1910's hhmmmmmm OK. Info from NASA has its limitations due to green screen. Pretty sure Bruce Willis went to space too, I saw the footage and everything. The Antarctica peace treaty shows governments can work together despite what scandals come up during an election. But the shape is not the issue, flat earth can only explain time differences and seasons if the sun and moon in effect orbit the flat earth opposite each other, so what is causing the eclipse, it cannot be the earth because its not between the moon and the sun, both orbit in the sky above the flat earth according to the websites? Ships sailing over the horizon do not go up and down, draw a line straight through the centre of a circle, then draw a line 90 degrees through the part where that line intersects the circle, at no point does the circle go up and then down again - the only way you would see this on a circular object is to be very high up and very far away, not stood on a harbour. And a strong lens does not bring it back in to view, if its isn't there to be seen, again no evidence presented of this. If this were true we could simply put a big telescope on the west coast of Ireland and look at the statue of liberty, we have telescopes that can see millions of miles so the technology is available, flat earthers could easily just prove their theory doing this - so why havent they? I would like to see the data from the laser experiment if you could link it. As you rightly point out assuming the laser and recipient point are at identical heights above sea level it shouldnt be possible, but if there is just a few feet difference, say 20 or so then its very much fits the round model. I guess like most sites I read today, flat earthers do nothing to counter argue the arguments against their points i.e. the Cook example is very easily explained. Additionally they have no evidence to dispel round earth theory. Like I say, rather than grasping at various misinformed amateur conspiracies on the internet, get a powerful telescope and look from one country to another to show it can be done then its beyond debate...why has this not been done yet? Ignore all the daft minor issues, just do this and its debate over right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) Again I don't think the flat earth model hold an intellectual debate, how could it but I find the topic interesting. For me the Captain Cook matter I still see as a mystery, he wasn't looking for the south pole, wasn't intending to get off his boat at Antarctica - he wanted to circumnavigate and map it. Something he could have at least done a long way of from the coast to do so. Even 1/2 miles away he could at least circle it without risk from hazardous floating ice. There's no escaping this guy was smart, very smart I do not buy he simply ran out of talent as his 250yr old maps are used today and are being reproach. The FE eclipse is caused from the same reasons as the globe, the moon *same size as the sun passes in front of the sun. I watched sea shore amateur videos whereby the out of site ship is seen again with a powerful zoom lens. Something not possible to do at the time when the globe model was beginning to take shape nearly 2000 years ago. Weather something appears flat over 7 miles or 70, it's still flat. Salt flats covered in a think layer of water proves this. The video below unless a fake of course again proves there is no 20ft of curve drop that is said to be present after 7 miles of distance. What's your thoughts on the flights paths I and Jay put up? Edited February 12, 2018 by davey_83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I had a very quick look at that video (too late to put in the half hour!) and it seems to have a very obvious flaw at the start maybe I missed it but its late, but they only measured two points, to prove its flat you need to measure a laser from one end to the other and have it pass through a third point in the middle which is the same height as the points at either end - otherwise you have variables at either end where inches make the difference in feet which prove or disprove it? I am out of my depth in terms of science on this one and can only try read up on it, but I guess the simple solution is there, big telescope look at America from Ireland, it should be right there in front of you. End of debate. Why hasn't it been done? Amateur photographers have put digital SLRs into plastic boxes attached them to helium balloons and taken photos like this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7514429/Father-captures-pictures-of-earth-using-camera-fixed-to-weather-balloon.html Surely flatearthers can just save themselves the hassle, send a camera up, take photos of a flat earth with a polar edge and its done? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Yeah see I didn't realise it was a straight line and was quite impressed that it was. It's only the Cathay Pacific flight plan, I think BA fly over India. I did Google whether gravity can bend light and it can but couldn't find conclusively that earth gravity was enough to make a laser beam run parallel to the ground on a perfect flat. Personally I believe there are to many people that have access to incredible heights such as pilots to keep them all quiet that the earth is flat. On a slight reversal, wasn't it on QI that it's an urban myth that we ever thought it was flat to begin with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, coldel said: I had a very quick look at that video (too late to put in the half hour!) and it seems to have a very obvious flaw at the start maybe I missed it but its late, but they only measured two points, to prove its flat you need to measure a laser from one end to the other and have it pass through a third point in the middle which is the same height as the points at either end - otherwise you have variables at either end where inches make the difference in feet which prove or disprove it? I like the logic, makes sense to me. Edited February 12, 2018 by Jay84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) Pretty sure at long range say after 100 miles atmosphere even on a clear day kills visibility. FE doesn't for a lot of reasons hold water, however a amateur laser across a flat frozen lake which is seen without needing to go up a ladder is there to make of what you will. Again a salt flat filled with a thin layer of rain water looks pretty flat also, fake NASA footage of astronauts just isn't cricket and there's more. Jay's flight path was funny also as its as straight as you like, I personally have been on a plane and the route was coastal from the top of the US down to Jamaica starting from Manchester. That makes no sense on a globe, wait maybe the pilot wanted a detour for the benefit of the guests onboard. Check out operation highjump, why send nearly 5000 men and women, 13 ships, 33 aircraft to Antarctica staright after a world war? You do not send that type of might and spend that type of money for no good reason!!!! Sooooo strange when you look into it. Edited February 12, 2018 by davey_83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G1en Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 There is an obvious explanation for the laser experiment. That particular salt flat or whatever may in fact be “flat” The earth is not a perfect sphere, there will be sections and areas of varying sizes that are as near as dam it, flat, there will be other bits that curve a little more than normal. Case closed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashback Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 6 hours ago, davey_83 said: Again this is interesting and doesn't fit the globe model. Either the water is flat as per every test ever conducted or the salt flat is curved over the 10.5km sq and the water curves with it. I guess water need for surface area to start doing its thing. https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2017/feb/23/bolivias-salt-flats-in-pictures It's just a particularly flat part of a particularly spherical world, neither is exactly true but we need something to use as a basis that's good enough. That's how most things are. I always remember my physics lecturer at university telling us all that the greatest facts in the world are only made possible by mathematical hypothesis tempered by constants, but that without them we'd understand nothing, I.e. nothing we use is truly correct but if it's close enough for our needs then that's what we go with. Good examples of this are pi - irrational number, calculus - stating that any curve can be treated as infinite straight lines and thermodynamics - equations are generally assume over a quasistatic period, i.e infinitely slowly when in fact many happen almost instantly in reality. Wetting is described really well here @davey_83 if you want to understand it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetting It's best described by Young's equation where we simplify spherical interactions into planar geometry to help categorise. I would explain more but I've been walking whilst typing and unfortunately I've just feel of the edge of the earth! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Are we really talking flat earth on here? We may as well start sacrificing goats in the hope for a bountiful petrol harvest at the garage The pseudo-scientific experiments/arguments are merritless, it’s a fabrication by a small group of people who have FE t-shirts and bumper stickers to sell to a public who, on the one hand are happy to have phones and internet and x-ray machines and aeroplanes, but in the same breath reject the very scientific method that made all those things possible. If you want to reject it, fine, but leave your car and your central heating and your healthcare behind as well. I get some people just want to believe in conspiracies, it makes them feel different and special and part of something, they fear the uncertainty of science, the idea that when some new evidence comes along, we just throw the previous hypothesis away and start again. This is seen as a weakness, but it’s obviously science’s greatest strength. The idea of dogmatically sticking to something, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (or a complete absence of evidence), just because it’s comforting is bonkers. But all that’s just a psychological thing, it has no grounding in genuine discovery of anything new. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 OK They said you can eat the results so I've done the chocolate experiment about 40 times - to confirm my findings Now are there any doughnut experiments to prove the curvature of the earth as I am willing to try these - for science of course The lake experiment with the laser - if he was lower at the far end then the earth is still round we are just on the inside of the curve - what he needed (as said above) was a reference point in the middle of the lake. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock_Steady Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) Stars that are further away appear to be red, as longer rays of light are seen by the human eye as so. The closer the star is, the more blue it is due to the fact that shorter light rays have this effect on our eyes. That's the general consensus. Physics on earth work on earth, since their basis is fundamentally researched and tested in earthly conditions. if you took our physics and mathematical theories to , lets say the Zeta Reticuli star system which is roughly 54 light years away, our physics and mathematics would not apply given the nature of time and gravitational differences of a binary star system. Gravity disturbs time in space so much so that our theories can be violated. Yes light can be bent as our sun has proven so by NASA, who claims that it is possible to see a star behind our sun as its tremendous gravity pulls light around it and gives an image of what's behind, in front . While NASA ( Never A Straight Answer ) does modify photos which have been taken in space, for various reasons, probably haven't modified those that show that the earth is "round" which it isn't a perfect circle but is close enough. Edited February 13, 2018 by Rock_Steady 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Again this is all confirmation bias looking at tiny pieces of information without objectivity. The lake experiment is a classic example of a badly performed experiment missing vital tests such as measuring a trend or straight line needs three points, but hey if it kind of works to support a theory forget about the basics and take it at face value right For a lunar eclipse, even with basic viewing equipment you can see its a shadow and not a planet, if the moon and sun are orbiting the middle of a flat earth above us, where does the shadow come from? What is it that's between the earth and the moon? I read up on the FE idea of gravity, apparently the flat earth is constantly accelerating which gives us a feeling of gravity. This is done by something called dark energy and the explanation is simple apparently: "Dark Energy This model proposes that the disk of our Earth is lifted by dark energy, an unknown form of energy which, according to globularist physicists, makes up about 70% of the universe. The origin of this energy is unknown." So without actually proving anything and just giving it a name its manages to overcome a key issue of how gravity works and push it aside. Even curvatures of the earth in high level aircraft flight they brush aside due to 'curved plastic windows' in planes. As said, just go up and take a photo and be done with it. Or just use a thermal imaging camera to look at something 50 miles away? There are lots of ways of doing this, much easier than scouring the internet for any obscure bit of footage (which is much easier to fake than paying off every single pilot, astronaut, scientist etc etc not to say anything and fake every single photo by the way!) - I also presume our beloved Elon Musk is in on it too and now a paid up member of government black ops not to say anything 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashback Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 7 hours ago, Keyser said: OK They said you can eat the results so I've done the chocolate experiment about 40 times - to confirm my findings Now are there any doughnut experiments to prove the curvature of the earth as I am willing to try these - for science of course The lake experiment with the laser - if he was lower at the far end then the earth is still round we are just on the inside of the curve - what he needed (as said above) was a reference point in the middle of the lake. And the winner of this year's Nobel Prize for Doughnut Physics sponsored by Crispy Creme is....... @Keyser helping to flatten the earth with every step. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Thanks @Flashback its nice to know my efforts are appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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