davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 On 31/03/2018 at 11:15, Jay84 said: Doesn't religion also provide a story that can't be backed up? Science adjusts its views based on whats observed so flexibility is required. No such flex in religion, In terms of proving evolution, the easiest way of this is to view dog shapes over the last 100 yrs and how selective breeding has ruined various breeds. Selective breeding is forced evolution, rather than letting the slowest/weakest die out through natural selection, we're controlling it. If we're all made in a deity's image, why do we all look so different? People that live nearer the equator have darker skin to cope with the proximity of the sun/extreme temperatures, surely that evolved over time. How is modern religion different to ancient Roman/Greek/Sumarian/Egyptian religion? Whats to stop a new God being discovered and superseding modern ones? If gods are eternal, whats the origin of them? The same questions asked about the universe/science can be put to religion. I agree that science has a lot of unknowns, and I think Mr 'Hawkins Brief History of Time' falls back to a God answer when asking what existed before the big bang. If in the not to distant future it was scientifically proven that JC did exist and actually rise from the dead, would you become a Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I guess the bigger question is if in the near future it was proven Christ wasn't real and the prophet Muhammad is real would you turn to Islam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) I don't have a problem at all with microevolution (just a name) its macroevolution, ie a dog changing into a rabbit, a rabbit into a sheep I see no demonstrable evidence for. Again micro affects humans, ie one type of species so no bother there. The bible account for day one of creation, so I don't really see it as modern? What's the origin of God? to answer it wasn't long ago (60 ish years ago) science thought the universe was infinite having always existed, so its ok for that to be fact and yep clear understand but not for God to be the same? #copeout #whenitsuites Science now understands that 'time' can into exist with the big bang, yes a cracker to get ones head around but its out there. With gods, ie god of this or god of that. I believe mythology is just that and accounts for fallen angels, for example Loki is mentioned in the bible. The Egyptian gods, are the same also. The difference is the God of the bible claims to be the creator time space, universe, and us - those don't. Either matter made mind, or mind made matter Edited April 3, 2018 by davey_83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 45 minutes ago, coldel said: I guess the bigger question is if in the near future it was proven Christ wasn't real and the prophet Muhammad is real would you turn to Islam? lol Muslims believe in Jesus so................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 So would you stop being Christian and become a Muslim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 No. I don't believe you know what you are asking. Part of Islam is JC, so if theres no JC as a whole you maybe look elsewhere. Also faith isnt based on scientific knowledge, so my question is relevant to a non believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 In short and trying to simplify the questions then, even if JC was proven not real, and say Buddha was - you would still be Christian and not become a Buddhist? If not then so it wasn't fair to ask above someone else to believe in Christianity if he was proven to be real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) Why so? I see it as a straight forward question based on what a person look towards in terms of truth. A lot of people don't entertain faith due to its lack of evidence, therefore I asked if the correct amount of proof was given would that be enough? I await the yes/no answer and I kindly ask it of you. Edited April 3, 2018 by davey_83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Would I believe in Christianity because science proves Christ exists? No. Because that doesn't prove all the miracles that claim to come with it do also - like we discussed before although the Ark was the right dimensions, boats had been in existence long before that event apparently took place as well as divine intervention sorting out stuff like starvation and drought on board. I suspect there was activities going on at the time which made people desperate for something to believe in create something bigger and more sensational around those activities. So, am I understanding correctly you would believe in something even if it was shown to be based on a falsehood and in fact shown you had chosen the wrong faith where another was shown to be true? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 sorry, i asked if it was proven he rose from the dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 And how would that ever be proven? But for debate sake assuming it could be - him coming back to life (as many people do nowadays actually where they spend time without a heart beat) doesn't prove all the other miracles we observe in the writings or the existence of god who created all things. So, would you move over to the true religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 3 hours ago, coldel said: So, am I understanding correctly you would believe in something even if it was shown to be based on a falsehood and in fact shown you had chosen the wrong faith where another was shown to be true? Well, flat earth... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apoc124 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 2 hours ago, ilogikal1 said: Well, flat earth... If flat earth is real then we are on the shoulders of 4 elephants that stand on the shell of a giant space turtle called The Great A'Tuin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 It's an interesting concept the question of proof I guess. I don't agree with what parts of some religions condone, so if one was proved real, i think I'd be profoundly disappointed. With the state of the world, things like stoning, murder in a gods nave etc. In a nutshell, if it was proven that Jesus existed, or any of the others, I'd believe they existed, but could not bring myself to follow. I'd be damned because of it, I know that, but id die knowing I lived in a way that caused no harm to others and was in the grand scheme of things a good ish person. I don't think you need religion to be a good person. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I agree wholeheartedly and thank you for your answer. No one is born with faith, folks come to faith differently. There's no hard and fast rule for what this will entail. The same is for when someone looses faith. Evidence is subjective, what is enough evidence presented in a murder case for example might make one person's mind up for guilty and another person of the jury for innocent. Same for a boxing match, all three judges witness the exact same event and can score the fight differently. Very elementary however this is proof that evidence is subjective. This is why I step back from folks that say the apposals show contradictions for the account of the reserection. Yeah and? Some details where different and this is perfectly normal as proven above a part of life. Also how one person would describe an event would be different. That's why police want to eyewitness as many people as they can to a serious crime, why do that if they'll explain the exact same event? They won't and this is fact, hence you'd want as many view points as possible to build a picture. One person could drive a new 911 gt3 and absolutely love it, another person could take it or leave it and fancy a would prefer a Cayman gt4 or huracan performante...... Wow a different view point. For me any contradiction in the Bible is down to man's lack of understanding with the text. Example, some Christian believe the earth to be young, ie a dozen thousand years or so. Some wholeheartedly believe the earth was made in a literal 6 days. Or dinosaurs were on the ark. Or belief in a trinity. From understanding the text more you learn more and see structure. How can one understand text better than another, words are words right. Wrong, text figures mathematics can all be understood greater from one person to another. A average uni scientist for example has access to exactly the same data as a great one, however the understanding can be greatly different. I always try to give a short direct answer without fluff and can also back it up with logic, well in my mind anyways lol Now my position on truth faith. I actively truly to pick holes in the Bible and in other religions, not in the way Dawkins does but to cross reference if you like what I don't understand or what doesn't make sense or just simply doesn't apply to a good person from my point of view. I don't pick and choose elements of the Bible I like, my understanding of the text is different to another follower. The life of jc from what I understand was remarkable and his teaching even today are beyond reproach. I saw JC life on earth as a perfect example to follow. Not to say I can do it, because I can't but to aim towards that. Now for the kicker, IF a person does this and falls short, you still made it. This is exclusive to the teaching of the Bible and from my understanding isn't shown in any other belief. His death has paved the way for all mankind, IF you want it. We are imperfect and this is why this event predates a serval billion humans. You can't fake belief and trust in God and there's that also. As a loving God the above level of acceptance is wonderful. I don't know what lies ahead, no one does for sure however today no I would swap religious views due to scientifically proven or disproven events. And to be fair I ask it of myself (critical thinking) for a nano second and no other view stacks up to me in the way the Bible does. At a glance and to explain my position I'd say for ease I'm a Christian, however I'm not really as I said before. I'm a follower of he that proclaims to be the creator from the Bible and in his son. The above might be the biggest load of tosh you've heard all year, you're welkom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) A loving god doesn’t give babies cancer. Edited April 3, 2018 by Ekona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 8 hours ago, coldel said: And how would that ever be proven? But for debate sake assuming it could be - him coming back to life (as many people do nowadays actually where they spend time without a heart beat) doesn't prove all the other miracles we observe in the writings or the existence of god who created all things. So, would you move over to the true religion? The difference is he said he would ahead of time........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) What logic or proof do you have of God actively doing this to babies? We are not how we were ment to be. We suffer and die sadly, the Bible teaches this sad fact of our existence due to reasons well documented. Edited April 3, 2018 by davey_83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I don’t need proof, I have faith. A loving god wouldn’t accidentally let babies get cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Davey, all power to you. It is NEVER my intention to dissuade people of their faith, and on this thread you don't come across as preachy or as someone desperate to convert me, so thank you for that. In my head I can be a good person without faith or desire of reward of an afterlife, or fear of reprisal if I'm not. That said I messed that up and as a consequence didn't a year apart from my wife and kids, so maybe I can't do it without faith. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 23 minutes ago, Ekona said: I don’t need proof, I have faith. A loving god wouldn’t accidentally let babies get cancer. Is this something you actually think about and would like answers for? I guarantee you won't get your answers from the periodic table, open your Bible and seek answers yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 That’s a bit like saying I won’t find out what happens to Harry Potter by reading Star Wars though. The periodic table won’t offer much insight to a lot of things, just like the bible is unlikely to provide any real answers to anything substantial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Sorry to hear that last part pal. You can't force someone to love and respect you, has to be natural. Is science bad for forging all the weapon we use in war against one another? No. Man is wicked and has been since day. How do you create something so perfect and have it remain perfect while allowing for complete freewill? That's left to God plan I guess. Mankind has to fully experience the bad to appreciate the good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 But the Bible doesn't contain answers, only comments that can be interpreted in many different ways (as you've said you do so yourself). You've also said previously that God punishes those that have strayed from His teachings, as humankind now is not how we're supposed to be. Assuming that's true, then either God is giving babies cancer to punish the parents or he's giving babies cancer because the baby shat itself too many times in a given week. However you look at it, that's an evil and spiteful thing to be doing, and most certainly does not make God a loving one. It makes him a c***. Or is there another reason God gives babies cancer? My comment about not needing proof as I have faith was deliberately flippant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, ilogikal1 said: That’s a bit like saying I won’t find out what happens to Harry Potter by reading Star Wars though. The periodic table won’t offer much insight to a lot of things, just like the bible is unlikely to provide any real answers to anything substantial. In your opinion yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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