Overdevelopment / Planning App?

[rabbitstew]

One reason I bought my current house is that there was an obvious potential to extend the side of it. However I never got around to applying for planning permission until just now, some 10 years later.

 

I got a very good architect to give us some suggestions and pointers. He has designed something which is in keeping with the existing building but allows us to redesign the inside more in keeping with how modern houses are laid out. Basically what we are wanting to do is to pull down a ramshackle existing single story extension on the side of the house and rebuild it, but a fraction bigger and in order to off-set the costs built it as a double story extension. This will give us a nice sized new kitchen and a 4th bedroom upstairs with an on-suite.

 

The new extension will be about 14m2 bigger than the current one. It doesnt overlook anyone, does not impact on light to any of the surrounding properties and all my neighbours, who I spoke to before putting the plans in, are more than happy with the extension.

 

The local planning officer has came out and said he is also more than happy and didnt foresee any issues. I currently have 400m2 of garden & drive around the house and our building to plot ratio is a lot smaller than any of the surrounding houses, who all seem to have virtually no garden due to their houses being so large.

 

So it was all looking very straight forward until it went to the local Town Council who review all applications. They have no building or architectural experience and are normal "people off the street". They have said they think its "over development". I am at a loss as to how they can say that, when the new extension is only taking 14m2 of a 400m2 garden/drive. Thats only about 3.5%! The part of the garden the extension will be on is an unused waste bit of garden to the side of the house, which has no impact on us being able to use the rest of large garden and even after the extension our remaining building to plot ratio will be miles smaller than any of the surrounding houses.

 

Does anyone have any experience of this sort of thing? Is there an actual technical definition as to what is "over development". I am quite puzzled, especially when a bloke 500 yards away has got permission to build 9 houses in his back garden. 

 

The planning officer genuinely seemed really surprised by the Councillors decision and has said I can attend the next meeting and try and put my case forward if needbe, but it all seems rather strange so far!

[Lexx]

@Ebized is the man to ask about such things. 

[Jetpilot]

Sounds like one of those reasons you just cant argue, a guy i know applied 7 times for an extension to his existing property and it got refused because it was "not in keeping with the street scene", yet immediately opposite they had allowed planning for 3 new square properties in a character street.

 

Is it always the way with your council that its referred to the councillors rather than the planning officers making the decision?

 

If you can provide evidence that house to plot ration will be less than or the same as other houses in the street you can always appeal the decision with this information.

 

Did you have any objections from neighbours? 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Jetpilot

[ATTAK Z]

As Lexx said for Planning Ebized is the local expert, and it's Ioneabe for Building Control and little old me for Structural and Architectural matters ...

 

Yes I'd consider an appeal too in which case I can put you in touch a colleague who will deal with this.

[Ekona]

The answer is staggeringly obvious, as it is with all cases where planning permission has been granted/refused where it clearly shouldn’t have been: 

 

Your brown envelope either wasn’t full enough, or didn’t reach the right person. Fill another one and try again. 

[leonk]

You say the new extension will "only be 14m Sq bigger than the existing one" 

When was the original extension built and did it have planning permission? If so were any stipulations applied regarding further development?

Were you advised by the planning department that you definitely needed planning permission?

Would the new one not come under your permitted development rights? Do you live in a conservation area? 

If the only reason for the refusal and I'm assuming you have a definite "decision", is over development, as Hugh says and based on the information already given, I would be inclined to appeal. 

Again as mentioned Ebized is your man.

 

[leonk]

2 hours ago, Ekona said:

The answer is staggeringly obvious, as it is with all cases where planning permission has been granted/refused where it clearly shouldn’t have been: 

 

Your brown envelope either wasn’t full enough, or didn’t reach the right person. Fill another one and try again. 

On the contrary my dear friend,  they merely refused his to draw attention away from all the others where brown envelopes, masonic handshakes and "favours" were involved! 

[Willy]

I would reiterate leonk’s questions

But, I’m not sure whether you app has been refused as you state the P.O. said you can attend the next meeting, which suggests all is not lost!

You also say you have a “very good architect” but tbh he/she should have monitored progress and quashed the committee’s concerns.

If you haven’t had a refusal and are still able to defend the app, I would suggest you gather as much info on local extensions (photos, positions on a location plan etc) to arm your architect in readiness for committee. If you end up going to appeal this will still be needed anyway.

Are you familiar with the rules of permitted development? If not have a look on the planning portal website, where you’ll find guides on how big extensions are allowed to be, along with simple rules on heights and distances to boundaries etc

 

 

[rabbitstew]

9 hours ago, leonk said:

You say the new extension will "only be 14m Sq bigger than the existing one" 

When was the original extension built and did it have planning permission? If so were any stipulations applied regarding further development?

Were you advised by the planning department that you definitely needed planning permission?

Would the new one not come under your permitted development rights? Do you live in a conservation area? 

If the only reason for the refusal and I'm assuming you have a definite "decision", is over development, as Hugh says and based on the information already given, I would be inclined to appeal. 

Again as mentioned Ebized is your man.

 

The original extension was built at the same time as the house, 1970. It looks like it was a bit of an afterthought as whilst it matches the house brick wise, it has no insulation and a leaky flat roof.

 

If I was to just rebuilt it and not go 2 storeys then apparently that is permitted development and I wouldnt even need planning, but once you go 2 storeys you do. Originally I was just going to rebuild it, but then all the builders I consulted pointed out you need the same foundations for 1 floor as 2, so making it 2 storeys would make more sense financially.

 

No conservation area and no objections from any of the neighbours. In fact they think the extension is an excellent idea.

 

Its not been refused outright, the feedback they gave me was its overdevelopment of the site and I should make the extension smaller and resubmit new plans. But any smaller and it means ditching the onsuite, and we will still have this large bit of side garden doing nothing.

 

Originally I actually wanted a much bigger extension to give me an additional downstairs room I could use as a gym, but the architect thought that might be considered overdevelopment, so we went with a much smaller conservative plan and kept it well away from neighbouring boundries to avoid any party wall concerns.

 

The planning officer has now said if I put smaller plans in, I can attend the next council meeting and put my case forward if I want. Just seems a lot of hassle and a completely nonsense reason from them.

 

The most annoying thing is that due to the shape & location of my plot, most of the new extension will not even be visible to anyone passing my property.

Edited November 9, 2017 by rabbitstew

[Ebized]

Just seen this.  I'm sending you a pm.

[leonk]

You are in good hands now with Ebized. Thanks for answering the questions. It would appear that you are still at the consultation stage and that no actual "decision" has been made yet.

 

A bit late for Rabbitstew but, my only advice to others, and I'm surprised your architect didn't mention this, is apply for more than you want and let them knock you back at consultation and revise your plans back to what you actually want. That way they think they have won. It's all a big game.

 

All the best with it and don't get too stressed, just build a massive "garage / games room"  complete with bar, shower room etc, waite a while, apply for change of use and join it to the main house with a nice glass corridor.

[rabbitstew]

1 hour ago, leonk said:

You are in good hands now with Ebized. Thanks for answering the questions. It would appear that you are still at the consultation stage and that no actual "decision" has been made yet.

 

A bit late for Rabbitstew but, my only advice to others, and I'm surprised your architect didn't mention this, is apply for more than you want and let them knock you back at consultation and revise your plans back to what you actually want. That way they think they have won. It's all a big game.

 

All the best with it and don't get too stressed, just build a massive "garage / games room"  complete with bar, shower room etc, waite a while, apply for change of use and join it to the main house with a nice glass corridor.

Yeah I think they like to give you a 2nd chance, so rather than refuse outright they have said make it smaller and we will reconsider. Which is what we have now done, so will wait and see. Whether or not its worth me attending the meeting and pleading my case I dont know, but I may as well. Cant hurt to have a 15 stone skinhead pointing out to them where they are wrong.   Just have to try and not get aggressive with them.  

 

You mention applying for more initially. Good point. Originally I wanted a much much bigger extension to make full use of the unused side garden, but we foolishly kept it much smaller to try and keep it (in theory) a simple straightforward process. You mention garage, which is funny as originally I did want to also extend the existing garage forward by 1.5 meters to give me more space for my toys, but again, I didnt want to push things with the planning department so left that off. At my old house I built a shed/garage/workshop which was something like 30m2 in size. Massive. No problems at all. Didnt need planning or planning regs, but at my current house the only way I can extend the garage is to add to the front of it, which apparently if it affects the front view of the property you then need to apply for planning, even for a small 1.5m x 5m extension to the front of it.

 

The understanding ive been told is that it should be "easier" to get the local council to approve the planning permission rather than let it go to the full planning committee. Apparently I could stick to my guns and take it to the planning committee but they are more strict apparently.

Edited November 9, 2017 by rabbitstew

[Jetpilot]

If as you say the building to plot ratio will still be less than other houses and you can provide factual evidence of this, along with allowing 9 new builds and support from neighbours, i would stick to your guns, they would find it very difficult to refuse you as they have to remain objective.

 

I have just had to deal with an environmental officer on a new build, completely painful and whilst planning officers may be complete jobsworths, they are at least objective i have found.

 

Also very surprised that a simple extension has to go a planning committee, is that usual in youre borough?

Edited November 9, 2017 by Jetpilot

[rabbitstew]

You can see the building to plot ratio from the OS maps, its pretty obvious if they looked at it properly. I guess I could measure them up and put that forward - which I will if I have to go to the full planning committee thing. The only thing I can think is that when the Councillors looked at the new plans they didnt take into account that the extension is replacing an existing one and may have thought that the new extension was going to be adding something like 40m2 onto the side of the existing 3 bed house. Even so, 40m2 of a 400m2 garden is hardly over development and not unusual from what I see just driving around the local area.

 

Luckily the planning officer in my case seemed a really sensible bloke, he had no problems at all with it. I think the majority of planning applications are dealt with my the local Councillors in their monthly meetings and it only goes to the full planning committee if they refer it, or they decline the permission and the applicant appeals. Something like that, ive not used the process before.

 

Their next meeting is in a couple of weeks so I will find out then.

[Jetpilot]

Surprising that if the planning officer effectively puts his name to it that its refused. If it goes to the committee they will do a site visit, so maybe once they actually view it, they will see more sense.

 

Good luck, went through it myself about three years ago, refused the first time and submitted modified plans to address their original concerns and it was granted. I would check what Leon says, it might fall under permitted development.

 

https://interactive.planningportal.co.uk/mini-guide/extensions-two-storey/1

[Willy]

I would keep with the plans that you would be most happy with mate, rather than bend over now.

Even if you are refused you will have the opportunity of a "free go" and submit a reduced scheme which would almost certainly be approved and probably not go to committee

As I mentioned before - what's your architect say about it all, as he/she should be all over this - or have you fallen out ?

[rabbitstew]

38 minutes ago, Willy said:

As I mentioned before - what's your architect say about it all, as he/she should be all over this - or have you fallen out ?

No, hes been really good. He rang up the planning officer directly and had a long chat with him about what he feels we need to adjust in the plans in order to keep the town council happy. He`s dealt with the guy before and gets on well with him. He`s taken all the feedback on board and redone the plans for free etc. so they now match what the planning officer has recommended. He`s also emphasised all the positive points I mentioned and pointed out its replacing the existing extension and is only slightly bigger etc. We have also tried to make sure they are aware that we are using matching materials etc so it will blend in with the street scene.

 

Just have to wait until end of month now to find out as they only meet once a month. Still, will give me longer to save up for the 8 metres of bifold doors its going to have. Sigh....

[Ebized]

7 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

Surprising that if the planning officer effectively puts his name to it that its refused. If it goes to the committee they will do a site visit, so maybe once they actually view it, they will see more sense.

 

Good luck, went through it myself about three years ago, refused the first time and submitted modified plans to address their original concerns and it was granted. I would check what Leon says, it might fall under permitted development.

 

https://interactive.planningportal.co.uk/mini-guide/extensions-two-storey/1

Two storey side extensions are excluded from permitted development.

 

See bullet point 11 here: https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/17/extensions

[Fodder]

I can’t really help or add anything that’s already been said and I believe you will be in excellent hands with Ebizeds advise. 

 

However, I do feel your pain.... I’ve just been through something similar as far as a junior Planning officer refusing a perfectly acceptable application which has been approved on a similar propert around the corner. Essentially they wanted me to move back the front of the second storey back to avoid a terracing effect and wouldn’t accept a compromise which would mean we kept an en-suite in the plan. 

 

Spoke ke to my architect and asked why I couldn’t build forward of the building line to avoid the same effect. I’m building on top of an existing garage which sits proud of the front of the house already so why not....

 

i gathered evidence of where both both styles had been approved locally with street view images and links to the Planning submission.... they then accepted the original compromise. 

 

Now on to the next stage.... finding a builder and paying for the thing

 

good luck, exciting times mate. 

[Keyser]

All I can do is offer hope and support, Ebized is the man on this and gave me loads of help when I built the Zed Shed II in the back garden, at a mere 104 square meters the size of a 3 bed bungalow

 

We had 3 objections, 2 were over development and one was implying I was trying to circumvent the covenants which state only one dwelling per plot - however I left the plans as they were and planning was approved and this was just after having a loft conversion which was also marked as over-development and I had 2 complaints from neighbours about overlook still went through - although I did have to agree to have opaque glass in the bathroom to get round overlook (like I wasn't going to do that anyway!?!) the funniest part was that I also had to have a restricted opening catch on the bathroom window so it only opens 2 inches as a vent again to stop overlook, the funny bit is that it is also the fire escape window so has to be fully opening to be in compliance with building regs, the solution - a quick release restricting catch, in other words a catch that stops the window at 2 inches unless you press a button then the window opens all the way as a fire escape - therefore breaching planning but apparently as long as you have to press a button it's not a breach

 

Planning is just so much fun

 

So it's not a NO until it's a rubber stamped NO and there are usually options. like appeals and small changes / concessions

 

I feel your pain and you have my full support in getting through the red tape required so sanity can prevail

 

GOOD LUCK

 

EDIT : I should also give a mention to @rabbitstew, @ATTAK Z and @Jetpilot who along with a few others gave an assist on my planning app Thanks Guys

Edited November 10, 2017 by Keyser

[rabbitstew]

Well heres an update.

 

We resubmitted new plans to the Town Council for a smaller extension. It meant making a lot of compromises. The new utility room will be so small we cant now have a back door off it. The en suite will be so small we cant have a walk in shower - will be a bit of a squeeze. We wont be able to add any extra space to the small bedroom through which the new hallway will go so this will go from being a double bedroom to a small single one. The new 4th bedroom will be a lot smaller so we cant have a walk in wardrobe. The new main kitchen/dinner will be a lot narrower and smaller. It will all be built out of the same matching material as the main house. Its not the extension we really wanted, but hey ho, if it will help get it approved then needs must.

 

After waiting 4 weeks for the next Council meeting...  whats the Town Council`s verdict? "It wont match the existing house or others in the street." WTF? I am using the same materials! And an even bigger WTF they say it is a "huge over-development of the site and the extension is far to big compared to the existing house."  I am amazed! Are these people blind? Its 14m2 bigger than my existing extension. It takes up hardly any of the current outside space. Its not as if im doubling the size of the house. My building to plot ratio is half of any of the surrounding houses!

 

On the other hand they have happily approved a house a few doors away`s extension. The owners have already extended their house previously, so their building to plot ratio is twice what mine is and yet their similar sized (albeit single storey) extension is perfectly fine apparently.

 

Luckily the planning department seem to be sensible. They have said that they are perfectly happy with my plans and will put them forward to be approved anyway.  I should have it all signed off within the next few days.

 

Makes you wonder though why there is such a long drawn out process like this where a bunch of Councillors with no planning or architectural experience can drag the process out, ignoring experienced planning officers recommendations and declining permission for something which is obviously perfectly fine, when the planning department themselves can just override their decision anyway. Weird.

[Ekona]

Because brown paper envelope. I can almost promise you that's the difference, or at least a case of who owes who a favour down at the Masonic Bowling Lodge.

[Jetpilot]

I would personally do some research on approved planning apps in the road, its easy to view the plans online and sizes with you're local borough website, take some photos of those extensions and take it to appeal and present you're case citing they have allowed "x", i would also make particular ref to any new builds, size and appearance and how do they match the existing houses in the street (not that they will). However, it wont match existing, is the difficult one to argue, whether you are right or wrong as IF they dont think it does, its the complete get out clause.

 

Another story, in my old house a developer put in plans for 9 flats next door to me, no other flats in the road. They were refused on, size of scheme etc and "introducing more traffic onto an already busy road", he reduced the size, but still kept the 9 flats and guess what, it passed without mention of the same amount of traffic that it was refused for initially.

 

You got to love public servants

[Ekona]

37 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

I would personally do some research on approved planning apps in the road, its easy to view the plans online and sizes with you're local borough website, take some photos of those extensions and take it to appeal and present you're case citing they have allowed "x", i would also make particular ref to any new builds, size and appearance and how do they match the existing houses in the street (not that they will). However, it wont match existing, is the difficult one to argue, whether you are right or wrong as IF they dont think it does, its the complete get out clause.

@ATTAK Z! Quick, over here!

 

 

38 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

Another story, in my old house a developer put in plans for 9 flats next door to me, no other flats in the road. They were refused on, size of scheme etc and "introducing more traffic onto an already busy road", he reduced the size, but still kept the 9 flats and guess what, it passed without mention of the same amount of traffic that it was refused for initially.

 

You got to love public servants

Yeah, not surprised at all. I'd love to know how they come to some of their conclusions, I really would.

[Jetpilot]

There has been vast public outcry at some recent plans for development in my area recently, 7 storey blocks of flats impacting on a lot of peoples outlook and with a very narrow access road, apparently the developer will widen the access road, how i am not sure seeing as there is pavement and then houses, planning passed., basically at the end they will say, sorry we cant widen the road, whats the fine, paid and done!

 

Also currently demolish two landmark hotels with water frontage, one site allow for luxury apartments to be built and sold which will fund the build of the new hotel on the other site.

 

Sad to say that for the council, its probably millions in CIL and then loads of flats with big council tax bills to add to the coffers, you can understand why they do it with all the cuts and government targets to meet, but some of it is just a disgrace and as with the op, no one is accountable or answerable to anyone, yet they are supposed to work for us!

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jetpilot