davey_83 Posted July 7, 2017 Author Share Posted July 7, 2017 (edited) Belief to me should never feel like pressure, I'm not sure but today I don't feel under pressure. I am who I am and if it's not good enough for big G il have to live with that. But I genuinely don't feel pressured or obligated to live a curtain way. I live my life, anyone in my FB will see my post are filled with my children, mrs and cars. If I turned away from my beliefs what more could I do to be happier In myself? Asking a genuine question. Single parent mom raised me and my little brother, she had to be mom and dad for us. Worked and held down i kid you not 5 jobs at once, all low paid jobs as she came from JA very young to better herself. Spoke no English so struggled in school in the 70's. I already have more than she ever had and I thank God every day for my life and give thanks without obligation. Edited July 7, 2017 by davey_83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 7, 2017 Author Share Posted July 7, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, coldel said: Some horses run faster than others, same with dogs racing? Pro footballers need elite training over the young years of their life - some countries do it better than others (look at teenage brazilian, argentinian, german players vs young English players in terms of the last 30 years) - its clear youth development in the UK is not as good as elsewhere for reasons that are not divine, they are manufactured as horrible as it sounds. There are probably hundreds of people out there that could be as good as Messi if they had the opportunity, training and commitment but they chose to do something else - hell some of them may have never kicked a ball in their life. Its interesting though sport, Messi makes other players look normal, but you have to put it into a relative spectrum - margins in pro sport are tiny, and even a tiny advantage can turn you from a great player to the best player. Think about the 100m sprint, being 0.01 second faster than the man next to you separates you from being the best vs not being the best. And better training facilities and understanding of the body has enabled us to go faster, higher, further than ever (Russian doping aside!) - pretty much every athletic world record has been set in the last 5-10 years. I disagree, no amount of money or training will make Jolean Palmer into Lewis Hamilton....... MJ showed you can turn black to white, not white to black lol Edited July 7, 2017 by davey_83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 How do you know? Have you totted up track time, money spent on trainers, who did he train with, what were his formative years like? Did he have a storng team backing him growing up, did he have good recoveries from when he failed? Thats what I mean, tiny margins. I am sure if Lewis Hamilton spent his formative years bumming around he wouldn't be the driver he is now. Messi is not ten times better than every other player, he is probably 5% better but thats all you need to be seen as the best. I was at Wimbledon watching Djokovic play yesterday, probably one of the best players of all time. The score would make it look like he breezed through the game but he played at around 95%+ of his max potential pretty much all through the game, the second he dropped to say 90% the other guy suddenly came back into it and the game threatened to sway. As you can tell (!) I disagree, I think in general sportsman who succeed do so through dedication, hard work, self discipline, commitment and practice. I think it would be unfair and quite frankly inhumane if a magical hand tapped a baby on the head and gave that child an upper hand on the rest of the human race - and would be a bit weird that god feels the need to produce a British championship F1 driver as part of his rounds each day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Is it too late to believe in the ancient Greek gods? Aren't there temples in Greece depicting the stories from the Greek myths? And what's different about modern religion? I'm pleased Dave has his belief and I would never try to take that from him, in the same way I'm sure his goal isn't to turn me on to religion. I started off with a semi religious up bringing, but my neighbours were born again Christians and had a very...dark twist on it to the point where my sister would have nightmares about death at the age 8. I was angry at the time. Now in my 30s I know that all people are people no matter what they believe. An atheist can spend evenings doing charity work to the homeless as well as commit murder. The same can be said of the religious. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, coldel said: How do you know? Have you totted up track time, money spent on trainers, who did he train with, what were his formative years like? Did he have a storng team backing him growing up, did he have good recoveries from when he failed? Thats what I mean, tiny margins. I am sure if Lewis Hamilton spent his formative years bumming around he wouldn't be the driver he is now. Messi is not ten times better than every other player, he is probably 5% better but thats all you need to be seen as the best. I was at Wimbledon watching Djokovic play yesterday, probably one of the best players of all time. The score would make it look like he breezed through the game but he played at around 95%+ of his max potential pretty much all through the game, the second he dropped to say 90% the other guy suddenly came back into it and the game threatened to sway. As you can tell (!) I disagree, I think in general sportsman who succeed do so through dedication, hard work, self discipline, commitment and practice. I think it would be unfair and quite frankly inhumane if a magical hand tapped a baby on the head and gave that child an upper hand on the rest of the human race - and would be a bit weird that god feels the need to produce a British championship F1 driver as part of his rounds each day... Like Americans who thank God for there success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeezeebaba Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 (edited) Evolution is a reality Dave, get used to it mate Our self sense of importance because of our achievements as a species leads us to think we are special over other animals. The reality is we are akin thus far to parasites on this planet with the potential to right the wrongs caused or completely destroy ourselves washed in our own self importance. Ironic really that most human advances historically have come about by conflict and the pursuit of control and power, religion is part of this social control mechanism. Not all advances but most and those that don't are powered by science. Do you believe in the prophet Mohammed Dave? There's a growing number that do so where would you cut short the one god system, Jesus? Edited July 7, 2017 by Zeezeebaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 I don't think I'm going to bother going any further with this discussion, as I believe that everyone should believe what they want - that was the main point of my last post about no one having all the answers, and it wasn't aimed specifically at any one person in this thread. I don't think it's respectful to call other people's beliefs garbage or stupid either - debate and refute by all means, but there's a line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 1 hour ago, coldel said: How do you know? Have you totted up track time, money spent on trainers, who did he train with, what were his formative years like? Did he have a storng team backing him growing up, did he have good recoveries from when he failed? Thats what I mean, tiny margins. I am sure if Lewis Hamilton spent his formative years bumming around he wouldn't be the driver he is now. Messi is not ten times better than every other player, he is probably 5% better but thats all you need to be seen as the best. I was at Wimbledon watching Djokovic play yesterday, probably one of the best players of all time. The score would make it look like he breezed through the game but he played at around 95%+ of his max potential pretty much all through the game, the second he dropped to say 90% the other guy suddenly came back into it and the game threatened to sway. As you can tell (!) I disagree, I think in general sportsman who succeed do so through dedication, hard work, self discipline, commitment and practice. I think it would be unfair and quite frankly inhumane if a magical hand tapped a baby on the head and gave that child an upper hand on the rest of the human race - and would be a bit weird that god feels the need to produce a British championship F1 driver as part of his rounds each day... I don't agree - some people are absolutely more gifted than others. No one's saying that it's possible to reach the top without hard work, but a lot of people will never reach the top of a given field, no matter how hard they work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 (edited) Exactly blessed almost. You can not manufacturer raw talent, Hitler tried that and failed FACT. What's different about the great ones is they have the availability to perform at the very highest level again ana again, that's the difference. Not that Bolt is 0.1 seconds across the line faster, it's that his done it at the games again and again that my friend is the difference. 8 hours ago, Zeezeebaba said: Evolution is a reality Dave, get used to it mate Our self sense of importance because of our achievements as a species leads us to think we are special over other animals. The reality is we are akin thus far to parasites on this planet with the potential to right the wrongs caused or completely destroy ourselves washed in our own self importance. Ironic really that most human advances historically have come about by conflict and the pursuit of control and power, religion is part of this social control mechanism. Not all advances but most and those that don't are powered by science. Do you believe in the prophet Mohammed Dave? There's a growing number that do so where would you cut short the one god system, Jesus? I would need to read up on Mohammed and then make my own judgement. Don't know enough about him either way. From speaking to friends alot of the Bible and Qur'an mirror each other, so would make sense that he very well could have existed. Proof of evolution? Edited July 8, 2017 by davey_83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 8 hours ago, BobbyZ said: I don't agree - some people are absolutely more gifted than others. No one's saying that it's possible to reach the top without hard work, but a lot of people will never reach the top of a given field, no matter how hard they work. Define "gift" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBorehamUK Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 8 hours ago, BobbyZ said: I don't agree - some people are absolutely more gifted than others. No one's saying that it's possible to reach the top without hard work, but a lot of people will never reach the top of a given field, no matter how hard they work. Yes, there definitely are genetic limits to a persons potential, be it physical or intellectual - it's just how we're wired. Think bodybuilding, theres only a certain amount of muscle a person can develop in their lifetime. (Ignoring roids) or Runners for example, The types of muscle fibres we have in our bodies are either fast twitch or slow twitch fibres. Certain ethnicities may predominately have an abudance of one type of fibre which may lead them to excel at sprinting or Endurance respectively. Of course, for the average athlete training would have the biggest impact but for individuals at their genetic limit, one with a better limit in the first place will succeed! Of course that's science based, but you could argue that they're gifted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 Those are physical attributes that sit in line with development - then you think about peoples personal motivations and desire, drive and will to succeed. All these means thousands of things come together to create our ability to do something. Messi is a player who has scored very high in pretty much all the thousands of attributes that come together to create what we are, it appears to make him gifted, but I don't think there is some mystical 'thing' that has said he should be a fantastic football player. This really comes down to the crux of what you believe in, if you believe a player is 'gifted' then you are effectively believing in a system much like Davey does (and nothing wrong with that). If you think about it nearly all of us are religious to a degree, how many of us genuinely believe in 'luck' - effectively an unproven mystical 'thing' which apparently some people have more than others 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBorehamUK Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 5 minutes ago, coldel said: Those are physical attributes that sit in line with development - then you think about peoples personal motivations and desire, drive and will to succeed. All these means thousands of things come together to create our ability to do something. Messi is a player who has scored very high in pretty much all the thousands of attributes that come together to create what we are, it appears to make him gifted, but I don't think there is some mystical 'thing' that has said he should be a fantastic football player. This really comes down to the crux of what you believe in, if you believe a player is 'gifted' then you are effectively believing in a system much like Davey does (and nothing wrong with that). If you think about it nearly all of us are religious to a degree, how many of us genuinely believe in 'luck' - effectively an unproven mystical 'thing' which apparently some people have more than others I believe they're Genetically/Physically superior and have also trained harder, had better access to facilities etc like you say. On the subject of genetics, I would say they're gifted but not by some divine being, just in the sense of the word - A gift from evolution and natural selection! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 Physical ability understood, coloured folk run fast lol What about genetics or science behind, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton?...... A near perfect blend of star dust?...... Proof of evolution? I'm clearly interested in a non believers POV. Meaning to life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 Yes, by gifted I simply mean being born with the attributes necessary to achieve whatever it is that the person in question achieves. Of course it includes physical attributes (no amount of training and PEDs will make me run 100m like Usain Bolt) and the necessary intelligence (some people's brains are more powerful than others), but also the other mental attributes to achieve that potential, i.e. good application. I would also include being born into the right circumstances, i.e. born into a family that gives you the right opportunities, has enough money etc. If the question is who or what decides how these gifts are dished out to the newborns available, I think that's something that I can only really guess at. The two available options as I see it are a higher being making the decisions, or rank luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 45 minutes ago, davey_83 said: Physical ability understood, coloured folk run fast lol What about genetics or science behind, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton?...... A near perfect blend of star dust?...... Proof of evolution? I'm clearly interested in a non believers POV. Meaning to life? Does there have to be a meaning to life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 Do you think there is? I like this answer using a question gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 29 minutes ago, coldel said: Does there have to be a meaning to life? If there needs to be for us, there needs to be for all life surely? I don't think there is any divine meaning, but people should set there own targets and meanings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 6 minutes ago, davey_83 said: Do you think there is? I like this answer using a question gig. Nope. Are there things I personally want to achieve, yes. So, does there have to be a meaning to life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 My feeling are science can't not prove things that are in existence. Touching back to what I said. Can love remain in a person for someone who has died, yes. So this is something in existence, yes. Did I love my man before and now after she has died, yes. Can science in anyway prove I loved her with facts? No, therefore not everything in existence can be proven with facts. Humour me, but if you have faith God does provide understanding to everything in existence, something science will never do. Science provides no reason as to why we are all here or how nothing then became something. I'd rather live in a world that has meaning, than one that doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, coldel said: Nope. Are there things I personally want to achieve, yes. So, does there have to be a meaning to life? That's a personal thing - some people will naturally end up asking the question of why we're here, some won't. Lucky you if you never do 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, coldel said: Nope. Are there things I personally want to achieve, yes. So, does there have to be a meaning to life? Yes, wouldn't it a wonderful to truly know for sure why this is all here? I mean truly know. Shocked me this week in learning, not only from this forum but a TV program now on YouTube called the big question. Where by God really isn't in the forefront of people's mind. How did we come to be, chance star dust, maybe something else. Most people ultimately are not bothered. Trees provide oxygen by design, yeh not bothered. The sun maintains life on earth and the rain has its role, yeah not bothered. Oh did you see the sale on for the new S7, wow what a score. Just me ranting for once, but makes me sad as I truly feel in most people's heart of heart God has no place. One day my belief is are and this isn't news for anyone is that the answers will come, and it won't be found down the end of a telescope. However before then we have to endure the false Messiah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 I don't really need to spend my life worrying about the meaning of life, I believe I do have meaning though and my friends and family I am sure would say that I do. I genuinely love my life, I will carry on doing what I do and discover new things, do I need a mystical being whose only evidence of being in existence is a book to believe I have value on this planet? Not really no. Dave I appreciate your beliefs but find it sad that you feel that anyone that believes otherwise upsets you and that they are chasing a "false messiah" - does religion not teach tolerance and acceptance? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 Sorry, I meant to say the the false Messiah is coming. I appreciate yours and all the comments above, I truly do. I to don't worry about the meaning, supposedly in my mind I already know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 I think this thread has run its course for me, thanks for the comments Davey, interesting to hear how the mind thinks of someone who is quite involved in one of the worlds many religions. For me my religion will continue to be the 3S-GTE 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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