Zeezeebaba Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Homosapiens have always worshipped something, there have been countless deities/beliefs since our inception. Ironically those found in the natural world and worshipped by early man are the most legit e.g. the Sun. Without the Sun we wouldn't exist and consider the north American Indians who looked towards nature for the divine. They were nothing short of perfect guardians for the environment because of it. It's only when we turned to deities in the image of ourselves that things really screwed up. The Islamic texts are around 1600 years old and correct a fair few mistakes of its forebear. Why, well because the time of its inception human discovery/knowledge had advanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 4, 2017 Author Share Posted July 4, 2017 Was this a joke? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4384770/amp/Jared-Kushner-hires-horror-film-publicist-Josh-Raffel.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Zeezeebaba said: Homosapiens have always worshipped something, there have been countless deities/beliefs since our inception. Ironically those found in the natural world and worshipped by early man are the most legit e.g. the Sun. Without the Sun we wouldn't exist and consider the north American Indians who looked towards nature for the divine. They were nothing short of perfect guardians for the environment because of it. It's only when we turned to deities in the image of ourselves that things really screwed up. The Islamic texts are around 1600 years old and correct a fair few mistakes of its forebear. Why, well because the time of its inception human discovery/knowledge had advanced. I've always said, if I was going to join one of these cults, Paganism is the way to go. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Putting aside the whole if you jump over a fire naked the sun will come up bit, the rest of paganism teaches how to get the best out of your crop and grain, respect the wildlife kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 4, 2017 Author Share Posted July 4, 2017 1 hour ago, coldel said: Funny thing is that when I googled the above the answer is apparently that God is not a caused being therefore does not have to have been created. Which seems a bit of a cop out if ever there was one. When it comes to religion, religions say prove us wrong. When it comes to science, religious people say prove yourself right. What is always missing, is religion proving itself right. Alot of what we hear and are told is believed. Back in the 90's as an example the fastest road car ever made did 241mph. Very few people have ever witness it physical doing this speed. Yet we all believe it to be true. Man to the moon, again most folks believe this to be true. Point is belief is not based on individuals witnessing events for themselves, but a belief or faith in what we are told without individual proof. My man who we all loved very much, I would not be able to prove to anyone how much I loved her or if I did at all, doesn't mean it's not true. Maybe AI will present it's findings soon on the matter lol I fear for heads of state, as true AI won't like corruption even if it's asked to turn a blind eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 In the 90s there were living witnesses, video evidence, the actual car running that speed at different locations across the world and proven engineering showing it happen and how it could have happened, other vehicles that are close to running that speed, even more than many people own running not far behind it. So yes that's not really a belief, as more an observation of something that has happened and is proven to have happened. So science is the truth, and religion is a belief, as I read it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 I wouldn't have said science is truth, it's the current working theory based on repeatedly observed evidence. It always tickles me that people get the hump when science changes its mind, "oh, last week they said smoking was ok, but they've changed their mind" like revising and considering new evidence and reformulating a position is a bad thing. A sign of weakness. Just keep saying things over and over, without any consideration of the evidence - now THAT'S a proper position 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 10 hours ago, Adrian@TORQEN said: Someone please call our GLO and ask to look at Andy's reply above. @ATTAK Z @Adrian@TORQEN @ATTAK Z ah phooey * You're 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 5, 2017 Author Share Posted July 5, 2017 10 hours ago, coldel said: In the 90s there were living witnesses, video evidence, the actual car running that speed at different locations across the world and proven engineering showing it happen and how it could have happened, other vehicles that are close to running that speed, even more than many people own running not far behind it. So yes that's not really a belief, as more an observation of something that has happened and is proven to have happened. So science is the truth, and religion is a belief, as I read it? No one is intending on making this thread a science v religion debate, not something that can be won either side. You choose to comment on part of my post which is fine, we're all busy and such like. Point was how we perceive proof. No one on this forum can view more evidence for example about said vehicles top speed any more than they can a mk6 Golf TDi factory emission test when new. IE living witnesses, produced data, pictures, video and documents. Doubt many people cared about the Golf at the time, however it was taken that in all conditions the engines emissions would be legal and above board. Later proven to be false, however all the evidence was presented to show otherwise. How big was the Roman empire? yes almost all of Europe as we know it today and parts of north Africa. Yes we all believe it to be true with no more evidence than what is written in the Bible about documented events as an example. Not everything can be proven by conventional methods as per my last post. Aspect in science are based in theory which is fine and has to be that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 5, 2017 Author Share Posted July 5, 2017 10 hours ago, SuperStu said: I wouldn't have said science is truth, it's the current working theory based on repeatedly observed evidence. It always tickles me that people get the hump when science changes its mind, "oh, last week they said smoking was ok, but they've changed their mind" like revising and considering new evidence and reformulating a position is a bad thing. A sign of weakness. Just keep saying things over and over, without any consideration of the evidence - now THAT'S a proper position When Science does do a u turn of supposed facts, I myself do see this as a sign of weakness. As up until that point people will scream until their blue in the face this thinking is correct. However tomorrow, their believes will change completely and now today they are right. From what I gather faith isn't correct today and wrong tomorrow, its set motion from the get go as being correct in a persons belief if that's ones bag LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 I guess my point was not a science vs religion argument, but I find it fascinating how people (in their billions) hold such a strong belief in the face of ever increasing evidence that in fact its a belief in something that is in all likelihood not real. The word Belief in itself by definition means that someone would believe something to be fact or true - as humans learn more religious truths are chipped away - for example we know why rain falls from the sky, in fact its possible to artificially make it rain now, its not because of a all powerful being deciding that it will rain to feed the earth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeezeebaba Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Science is on a mission to discover the truth, yes it corrects itself until the evidence or truth is irrefutable and proven. That's the beauty of reality versus fantasy, it's honest and progressive/adaptable. Religion is stuck in one gear, people who believe are belittling of any fact that contradicts thier faith and they favour that ignorance even if confronted with an irrefutable fact. It's nothing short of infantile thinking. It's a denial of the progress of humankind. It's self destructive and in the main a quest for immortality after they die based on atoning for sins not actually committed. It's crazy and bar a few cults globally essentially a death cult. The very act of trying to modernise the business of religion does no more than contradict itself, leading to division within certain faiths as the followers of the old ways clash with more progressive members. It's absolute cobblers and regardless of whether your an educated believer or a dunce needing a religion makes the only known life you have here less fulfilling than someone with an open mind. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Nice post Zebaba. Isn't a lot of religious believe purely because people dont want to accept there is no afterlife and that worries the crap out of them, therefore they gain comfort in believing that the pearly gates will open up for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 I couldn't imagine believing in some mystical being, and then getting so angry because others believed in a completely different mystical being that they have no proof of either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 I imagine religion can give people focus - plenty of people I am sure drift through life with questionable morals (the ten commandments are not something to be disproved but in-fact are a way of living for instance) maybe some people feel they need a guidebook to life? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 I believe in Zod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliveBoy Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 14 minutes ago, Flex said: I believe in Zeds. Fixed for you 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 16 minutes ago, coldel said: I imagine religion can give people focus - plenty of people I am sure drift through life with questionable morals (the ten commandments are not something to be disproved but in-fact are a way of living for instance) maybe some people feel they need a guidebook to life? A good point, and the fundamentals of all the religions started out as a guide of how to be a good person, and survive in your territory. All religions have a 10 commandments of sorts. Some of the eastern religions like Buddhism that go on pilgrimages up mountains originate in hot humid climates. Journey up this mountain and achieve enlightenment, well the air is clearer and cooler than you're used to, you have exerted yourself so are generally that bit fitter and healthier, it feels good. All religions have aspects like this that change with the location. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 5, 2017 Author Share Posted July 5, 2017 I agree with the one gear idea about religion, and not all of the bible sits well with me and no doubt if I read more there would be more I don't agree with. I guess this would be down to how its written (rewrote, translated edited and rehashed) and my own understanding of the piece. If science is ever evolving on a quest for truth, how does one know once truth has been reached? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 You don't. Once you think you have the "truth" you stop learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 5, 2017 Author Share Posted July 5, 2017 Or fully never quite know for sure........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Problem is religious books are pulled apart for interpretation by both sides of the coin. I see more bible quotes from atheists on FB that from Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 1 minute ago, davey_83 said: Or fully never quite know for sure........... Exactly. Thats the whole point. Once you say you know something for sure, you stop progressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 There are levels though right? Sure our understanding of the cosmos is much more improved than it was 50 years ago and we are still learning. But our understanding of why a spark appears when we strike flint against steel is pretty definitive i.e. iron particles combine with oxygen particles thus igniting and give off heat as they oxidise. I cannot imagine suddenly in the future there will be an alternate scientific truth to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 That's probably how some people felt after they decreed that Earth, Wind, Fire and Water were the elements, now there's the periodic table. They probably felt the same when Newton's Laws became established, then Einstein came along. Granted there's higher and lower degrees of certainty, but once you believe in an absolute truth, you've forgone the capacity to take on new evidence. That's dogma. Take the CERN / OPERA experiment where they thought a particle had travelled faster than light. We suspect this yo be impossible thanks to Einstein, but they didnt just say, "we all know that's impossible", they reexamined the evidence and found out someone dropped a nut. If there hadn't been a mistake, that "rule" would have been smashed and a new one formulated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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