Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 No. See passed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) We already have something like this, I believe its called ......... what is it ......... oh yeah, the Police force. Im sorry but anyone who suggests a gang of vigilantes wont end up beating the wrong person or becoming a gang of their own is a bit deluded. Its not an option, its why we have trained security services. The point is they would be a trained security force... Or are you saying the police and army are just a gang of violent people who go round beating people up??? Edited June 7, 2017 by Strudul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 No. See passed And when have you done a practical / physical test specifically designed to determine whether you are suitable for a defensive force or if you're just a sociopath... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) But we need sociopaths to be our soldiers, this is a VERY old debate. We train sociopaths to enjoy their more base proclivities as soldiers, then when they get home, we tell them to turn it off. What's amazing is the number that successfully manage to do that, I feel very sorry for the others. P.S. Or take the other direction, as per the movie Jack Reacher, you train a natural killer to be the best there is at his art, you tell him that his success will be judged on how many enemies he kills, then he goes into action for YEARS and never even sees an enemy. No wonder he goes nuts. You can have one or the other, but to have your cake and expect to eat it too is folly. Edited June 7, 2017 by Aashenfox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 er the latter, the SO insisted when we got back together. Actually it kinda helps in a sales environment. I don't think we need the home front roaming the streets, but a better educated populace I think is a must. Like I said, I don't know how to make a bomb, but if someone buys a load of flammable thing and bearings i'd be suspicious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 but if someone buys a load of flammable thing and bearings i'd be suspicious Or goes into a shop and asks for 12 bottles of bleach with their hands on their face... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Haha exactly. Obviously we can't prepare for everything. As was mentioned earlier, how do you vet someone hiring a van, or prepare us for that situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 So, you have say 10 of these vigilante groups working in London say. Of 5 people each. A city of millions within a few square miles. I would imagine the chances of any of these groups being in the right place at the right time to be so remote that most Londoners would never see them anyway. Or instead of throwing time and money at tool up the civilians why not just increase the police resource who will have access to immediate information, vehicles, priority travel through the city more powers of arrest etc. The thing is its a moving beast - you spend a load of money and time training and testing civilians and equipping them with stab vests so terrorists adapt, they wear bomb belts as standard, what does this group do then? In all likelihood those less experienced will make a bad choice and more people die? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Never said it was a good idea. I just refute that you couldn't make an organised group of people without them turning out to be violent sociopaths that go round beating Muslims up for no reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 So, you have say 10 of these vigilante groups working in London say. Of 5 people each. A city of millions within a few square miles. I would imagine the chances of any of these groups being in the right place at the right time to be so remote that most Londoners would never see them anyway. Or instead of throwing time and money at tool up the civilians why not just increase the police resource who will have access to immediate information, vehicles, priority travel through the city more powers of arrest etc. The thing is its a moving beast - you spend a load of money and time training and testing civilians and equipping them with stab vests so terrorists adapt, they wear bomb belts as standard, what does this group do then? In all likelihood those less experienced will make a bad choice and more people die? Which is why say the population as a whole needs educating. I don't mean combat, but eyes and ears. A bit like neighbourhood watch but less curtain twitchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 We already have something like this, I believe its called ......... what is it ......... oh yeah, the Police force. Im sorry but anyone who suggests a gang of vigilantes wont end up beating the wrong person or becoming a gang of their own is a bit deluded. Its not an option, its why we have trained security services. The point is they would be a trained security force... Or are you saying the police and army are just a gang of violent people who go round beating people up??? The police is already a trained security force, why not join that? If its because you cant be arsed with the training, the rules, the hierarchy then QED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 The police is already a trained security force, why not join that? If its because you cant be arsed with the training, the rules, the hierarchy then QED. Because it's a full time job, not something volunteers can take part in when they have some free time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Neither did I - but this sort of organisation will encourage a certain mindset and having seen a few psychometric exams/tests (no they do not ask you direct questions) will not sort that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Neither did I - but this sort of organisation will encourage a certain mindset and having seen a few psychometric exams/tests (no they do not ask you direct questions) will not sort that out. Hence it would require something specifically designed for the situation and go beyond written exams and group activities I'm talking practical, high-stress scenarios and tests that bring out people's true personalities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 The police is already a trained security force, why not join that? If its because you cant be arsed with the training, the rules, the hierarchy then QED. Because it's a full time job, not something volunteers can take part in when they have some free time... Special constables are already an option. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Neither did I - but this sort of organisation will encourage a certain mindset and having seen a few psychometric exams/tests (no they do not ask you direct questions) will not sort that out. Hence it would require something specifically designed for the situation and go beyond written exams and group activities I'm talking practical, high-stress scenarios and tests that bring out people's true personalities. So you are looking for someone who has no time to do anything in any real meaningful way, to commit to tonnes of time of testing, exams, stress test scenarios - to qualify as a volunteer who will have no powers apart from citizens arrest. Which is impossible when the person in question is a religion fanatic intent on dying. This seems like a good idea? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Special constables are already an option. Similar, but with much more specialised training and purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) . Edited June 7, 2017 by Flex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Special constables are already an option. Similar, but with much more specialised training and purpose. And who is funding all this? As above, you want someone to do an hour here and there to receive a fully fledged combat training and stress tested scenario training. To go out unarmed against armed terrorists and do what exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 So you are looking for someone who has no time to do anything in any real meaningful way, to commit to tonnes of time of testing, exams, stress test scenarios - to qualify as a volunteer who will have no powers apart from citizens arrest. Which is impossible when the person in question is a religion fanatic intent on dying. This seems like a good idea? 1) (Again) I didn't say it was a good idea 2) The dedication required is a plus side to separating the wheat from the chaff 3) Who says they couldn't / wouldn't have additional powers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Special constables are already an option. Similar, but with much more specialised training and purpose. And who is funding all this? As above, you want someone to do an hour here and there to receive a fully fledged combat training and stress tested scenario training. To go out unarmed against armed terrorists and do what exactly? It would be cheaper than hiring and training a load more full time officers. Training could be easily provided by (qualified) volunteers. Who says they will be unarmed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1. Again (as you like that phrase) I never said you think its a good idea, I questioned if you think all that effort to result in little or zero impact is a good idea 2. Dedication, to achieve little or nothing 3. They could have additional powers, its called the police and its multitude of variants and its already in place So who is funding this new civilian turned combat ready policing force? Seems like a waste of time, something you could blag your way into (having seen plenty of psychometric tests) and a complete waste of time when I believe we already have this in place hence the 8 minute response time from reporting of an incident to 3 dead terrorists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 You can still specialise as a CSO. I know someone desperate to join the force, but couldn't get in, so became a CSO. Once a CSO he did all the training including his firearms training, once he had that he got a job as an armed guard at a nuclear facility somewhere, still CSOing in his spare time, evenings and weekends on the streets. When off duty he still had the skills as they're not attacthed to the uniform. He then get into the force in Northampton. Moral is, if you want to be a policeman, go to Northampton...no wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Special constables are already an option. Similar, but with much more specialised training and purpose. And who is funding all this? As above, you want someone to do an hour here and there to receive a fully fledged combat training and stress tested scenario training. To go out unarmed against armed terrorists and do what exactly? It would be cheaper than hiring and training a load more full time officers. Training could be easily provided by (qualified) volunteers. Who says they will be unarmed? Right so - we invent a civilian policing force, we train them like the military, they spend one hour a week patrolling and we give them weapons. Am I seriously the only person on here seeing the insanity of this idea? There is absolutely no scalability to it. OK, so 10m people in London, millions in Manchester Birmingham so on and so forth. People devote say 3 hours a week to patrol, you need patrols to cover say 18 hours a day, people patrol in pairs say. London is what 30 square miles. Some simple maths and....6 patrol hours (18/3) of 2 people thats 12 people per day. Covering 30 square miles in one city, say they cover around 250 square metres each...and so on and so forth. You need to recruit tens of thousands of people, you need all the training to be given for free across the country confirming to specific guidelines probably aligned with the months of training that police officers get (let alone the years of training and graduation through the ranks that firearms officers get). All this is done for free, all the administration, process all the training itself. Then you need to buy, maintain and store equipment in secure locations across the country, again all this is free? I probably have only looked at the tip of the iceberg, but the idea is just nuts. Sorry to be frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1. Again (as you like that phrase) I never said you think its a good idea, I questioned if you think all that effort to result in little or zero impact is a good idea 2. Dedication, to achieve little or nothing 3. They could have additional powers, its called the police and its multitude of variants and its already in place So who is funding this new civilian turned combat ready policing force? Seems like a waste of time, something you could blag your way into (having seen plenty of psychometric tests) and a complete waste of time when I believe we already have this in place hence the 8 minute response time from reporting of an incident to 3 dead terrorists. I can't tell if you're purposefully ignoring it or just not understanding... I don't think it's a good idea at all. My point is purely that it's possible and could be effective. There are probably plenty of people willing to put in the time and effort without requiring payment should the need arise. You couldn't blag your way into it if it was designed well. It's not going to be the same psychometric test you do to apply to work at Sainsbury's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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