marzman Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) Hey guys, Fairly boring topic i know, but what kind of safety gear do those of you who do track days use? i.e. Helmet, Hans Device, Roll Cage, Harnesses, other? I've only got a couple of cheap lids that i got at a car boot. Purely just to satisfy the requirement to allow me on track at the moment, but i'm in the market for something better. I read a fantastic article about the Hans device a few years ago, and why one us a must when tracking your car. Do you guys see many people at track days with these? As i'd rather be spending my money on 'fun stuff', i obviously dont want to break the bank on safety gear so looking for any cheap but good helmet recommendations. Hans devices are expensive (circa £350+) for what is a pretty basic concept. Does anyone know of any cheaper alternatives? In terms of cage and harnesses - am i right in saying you shouldnt add harnesses until you've caged your car? And how essential do you think a cage really is for your average track day user (i'll be in an RX8). In terms of where to buy... i've checked Demon Tweeks which is quite dear, and eBay... but where else is good? Cheers Chris. Edited June 3, 2017 by marzman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I picked mine up from www.lidsdirect.co.uk but it was 2013 roughly and I cant find the order confirmation now to know what i paid, around £100 if i recall. If i was riding a bike or driving a convertible I'd definitely spend more on a decent helmet. I opted for full visor too, didn't fancy the glass in the face experience if the worst case happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Lids: Buy the one that fits and meets FIA regs. It may mean you end up spending £1000 instead of £300, or you may get lucky like me and find the £300 Sparco is a better fit than the £1k carbon Arai you wanted. Also never use bike kids in a car, they're designed for very different crashes and may not protect your head in an accident. HANS: Up to you. If you have the budget then absolutely why not, even if someone at track thinks it's overkill you'll be very grateful for it if you need it. I'd buy a romper suit over a HANS first though, I think. Harnesses/cages: Harnesses are fine with no cage, but only if done up properly tight else they can be more dangerous than a lap belt. Fine to use without a cage. Cages you need to be careful, as if your head could touch any part of it in a medium crash then you MUST wear a helmet at all times, including road use! This is why most people go for half cages than full cages, but it's almost overkill for a coupe on track unless you're running slicks. Harnesses I'd definitely do though, makes a huge difference to the driving experience. I'd use DT to go and try everything on, then either haggle a discount when you're there (doable if buying a fair bit of kit) or just buy from any shop on the internet that looked half decent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 I have, Romper suit (fire proof), Helmet, Gloves, HANS, FIA approved roll cage/chassis and full harnesses although my harnesses are out of date so would need to change if I ever do Hill Climb and sprint. As above Bike helmets (better than nothing) are not certified for use in cars you can get on a track day with them (2 of mine are bike helmets) but they won't pass scrutineer checks for a motor sports event AFAIK. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 FYI, you need harnesses to use a HANS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 http://www.v2sport.com/ I use one of the above, full face, I have been very happy with it, not the lightest but quality seems good over the 3 years I have it, nothing falling off etc Funnily enough, i only remember one briefing where the organisers wanted to check helmets for their markings and integrity. I also have a 4 point harness specific to my Vx, but without teaching you to suck eggs, if you are getting a harness, please make sure you mount it to the regs otherwise it may cause you more harm than good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marzman Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 Thanks guys. Good info. Regarding the harness without a cage... i've read some people's opinions about it being a no-no as if you roll the car without a cage, and you're strapped into the seat you cant get your head out of the way...? Seems to make sense and is a bit off putting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I've never heard that... I'd be surprised if it's possible to consciously get your head out of the way if the car rolls. I'm pretty sure most people would be too busy crapping their pants 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMballistic Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I've never heard that... I'd be surprised if it's possible to consciously get your head out of the way if the car rolls. I'm pretty sure most people would be too busy crapping their pants ^^ This. I've been in a car when I had a high speed roll over (down a hill, 60mph+) and I couldn't consciously do anything really marzman. Once it started I was just a passenger holding on and bracing for the impacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G1en Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Haven't any of you read the cards in the back of your seats that tell you what to do in an emergency? When the captain comes on the radio you brace for impact and grab an oxygen mask. Oh no wait, getting mixed up with my boeing 737, sorry There are as usual lots of conflicting advise on internet forums. Some say road cars and race cars are designed and built seperate and should be kept like that from safety viewpoint. Ie if you are thinking about roll cage, bucket seats, harness, helmets, etc either do everything or nothing. Other sites say some are ok, others not. There are valid points from all ends. I think ultimately it is the individuals decision to weigh up everything and make their own informed decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Thanks guys. Good info. Regarding the harness without a cage... i've read some people's opinions about it being a no-no as if you roll the car without a cage, and you're strapped into the seat you cant get your head out of the way...? Seems to make sense and is a bit off putting. Nonsense, IMHO. If you're in a seat with belts and it rolls, you are much much more likely to be mobile within the seat/belt, just like you are able to move much easier to reach the stereo etc than whilst wearing harnesses. As GMB says, if that's the case you've no chance of doing anything remotely consciously other than perhaps saying a quick prayer to the deity of your choice. Harnesses will keep you lower in the car and further away from the roof assuming you've got the seat position correct, which is arguably much more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marzman Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 ...everyone is assuming it has to be a conscious choice to move out of the way, but not necessarily. If you're only belted in you're likely to move around in the car. If it rolls and your head is put under pressure your body will move into an empty space before your head is crushed (hopefully!) But if you're strapped in and can't move anywhere then your head is going to get squished. Either way... this was just an opinion from another forum, but it seems to make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I still say nonsense If the car rolls and your head is put under pressure, then you're not walking away regardless of whether your body has anywhere to go or not. Which it doesn't, because your arse cannot sink any further into the seat in lapbelts or harnesses. If you're going to get squished, you're going to get squished: How you're held in matters not a jot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Yeah, I'm pretty sure with the forces involved, if your head is in the way during a roll it's never going to end happily. Speaking of the forces involved in a crash, I believe it's possible for a person's neck to stretch something like 7 inches in a big impact. Something to bear in mind if you're thinking of using a rollcage without a helmet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z21 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 marzman, this isn't a boring topic in the slightest, however I am biased as I work for one of the three companies which manufacture the HANS device and deal with these questions on a daily basis. My specialist subject area is specifically on driver safety equipment (helmets, HANS, race suits etc), however if people bear with me I can source some information on seats and roll cages due through some of the people we work with For now, I do not want comment on things I'm not positive about as I would hate to get something wrong which could compromise someones safety. In general there is a shockingly low level of basic safety when it comes to track days. This comes from a lack of real scrutiny but mainly lack of education. As that statement applies to motorsport as well as trackdays we are working with the MSA, FIA and other international governing bodies to improve the level of education, but Rome wasn't built in a day! As I have a lot of information to share, I’ll break things down in separate posts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z21 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 HELMETS The following information is to help people make an informed decision by explaining some basic principles and FIA jargon: One thing I see frequently is people using motorcycle helmets in cars on track days. This will often tick the box with the organiser, however a motorcycle helmet and a motorsport helmet are vastly different when it comes to protection. A bike helmet is designed to withstand one big impact (your head hitting the ground when you come off the bike). A motorsport helmet is designed to protect from multiple impacts (rolling a car for example). Furthermore, motorcycle helmets offer no fire protection and are incompatible with anchor posts for the HANS device. Under no circumstances should someone ever attempt to drill holes in a helmet to fit HANS anchor posts. When it comes to choosing a full face helmet or an open face helmet, an open face helmet will be a bit cheaper and less claustrophobic, however you have a far higher level of protection with a full face helmet. I personally know several drivers whose lives have been saved by a full face helmet, this video playlist on youtube (video 1 is the shunt caused by a failure on the car, video 2 is the remains of the drivers helmet) I am aware that which helmet to choose is confusing, the best thing to do is to visit somewhere and try the helmet on for real that way you can be sure it's comfortable, and it fits correctly. Remember a helmet should be a snug fit with some compression in the cheeks. Only buy from an official distributor or direct from the manufacturer don't be tempted by a fleabay bargin. How do you know what your buying hasn't been involved in a huge accident or is genuine product. It is your safety, its worth your time and money. These sound like obvious things, but they are mistakes made frequently. When buying a helmet, there are a number of different safety standards (homologations). They are: -FIA 8860 [Highest safety standard required for F1, WEC, etc. Unlike all other homologations, this helmet is HANS compatible without a separate certification] -FIA 8859 [New homologation introduced last year, does not include HANS compatibility on its own as this only refers to impact and heat protection] -Snell 2010 [Older homologation from the USA, again it only refers to impact and heat protection] -Snell 2005 [Really old homologation from the USA and will be redundant in UK motorsport in 2019] -FIA 8858-2010 [Current HANS device safety homologation, with no expiry date] -FIA 8858-2002 [Previous HANS device homologation, with no expiry date] Whilst FIA 8860 helmets offer the best protection, they are predictably the most expensive (budget £2000 + VAT), from now on we'll just look at the other homologations. What I would recommend purchasing is a helmet with FIA 8859 and FIA 8858-2010. What this means is the helmet is HANS device compatible (it will come with pre drilled holes for the anchor posts) and will have an adequate level of protection. This standard is ludicrously difficult to pass. It took us over a year to certify our large size helmets, and other large manufacturers are still trying! Whilst it doesn't offer as much protection as the top spec 8860 helmets, its very close in terms of safety but much cheaper. These helmets start at approx £300 + VAT. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z21 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) HANS Devices The following information is to help people make an informed decision by explaining some basic principles and FIA jargon: With regards to HANS devices, development on them started in the 1980s and they were first introduced in the early 2000s (first in NASCAR, then F1 and mandatory for UK motorsport as of 2016). As of 2010, all HANS devices are manufactured to the FIA 8858-2010 standard. This applies to both the HANS device and also the anchor posts on the helmet. A common complaint is that they limit head movement. Frankly this is not the case. We developed ours with the Andros Trophy to ensure this wasn't a problem. For those unfamiliar with that series, have a look at this video and you'll see what I mean! Another common complaint is that they don't offer a much protection. For those with this opinion, please watch this video. Whilst I recognise that you need to be running with a harness to be able to use a HANS device, if you have a harness, please use one. They start at £200 + VAT and will save your life in an accident. There are a variety of angles and sizes available. In terms of size, this is down to the individual, however medium will generally suffice as large is only for russian lumberjacks. With regards to angle, 30 degrees is for single seaters (F1, GP2, GP3 etc). For sports cars, touring cars you need a 20 degrees. It is essential that you use the correct angle with your car as the belts will slip off the legs on the HANS device and it will also be extremely uncomfortable. All HANS devices we manufacture are designed to work with both two and three inch belts. I can't comment on other manufacturers, but I can find out. How the HANS device works is that it prevents over extension of the neck in a frontal accident (30 degrees either side of zero). There is no lateral impact protection from a HANS device or the simpson hybrid. This comes from the 'halo' on the seat. They halo is the winglets on either side of an FIA seat. Like I said regarding helmets, please only purchase these from a reputable retailer or direct from manufacturer. A small saving is not worth potentially sacrificing your safety. Edited June 3, 2017 by z21 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z21 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 As I mentioned at the start of these post; belts, seats, and roll cages are beyond the scope of my expertise however I can do some digging and come back to everyone with something concrete. Whilst I could probably offer an informed opinion at this stage, I do not want to get something wrong which could compromise someones safety. Apologies for the multitude of posts, but this is a complicated subject area and the above is just the tip of the iceberg. I know the above is well known information, but as I'm sure most can appreciate, if it helps one person, its worth it. If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me and I'll send over my number or reply to this thread and I'll try to stay on top of it, however I may be a tad slow with Le Mans coming up. In the meantime, I've sent some emails to people far more intelligent and better paid than myself with regards to the roll cage discussion, seats and belts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Harness: Get legit. avoid the scene as **** £100 chinese takata @*!# Only use Harness on seats designed for them and no just because it has holes doesn't mean its designed for it Mount them correctly and if using a harness bar i suggest you get one which has been approved by some form of sanctioning body not just some random Ebay company sending you metal Helmets: dont use motorcycle helmets they are designed to be thrown away after first impact, getting in and out of a car especially with a cage you will have voided that bike helmet of any protection very quickly with how easy accidental knocking happens having been in a roll over accident before im confident my current FIA steel backed seats and harness would do a good job of holding the roof off my head in a roll over than that of the OEM belts and seats by a long shot Edited June 3, 2017 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 a few videos worth watching regarding seats thing like the Recaros found in the EK9 and DC2 etc ARE NOT motorsport seats invest in proper FIA seats 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marzman Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 Z21 - Fantastic posts. On another note... does anyone want to buy an Rx8... i'm starting to have second thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z21 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Thanks, and apologies for going on a bit! No need to sell up, could be a good opportunity to build the car into a proper track car and maybe even do some racing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMballistic Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Yep I enjoyed your post too z21. Tbh when I've done track days I've always just used an Arai motorcycle helmet. You see when I first started doing trackdays back in the late 90's you didn't even have to wear helmets back then providing you were driving a "tin top" (car with a solid roof). When the rule came in I did like a lot of people and just bought a motorcycle helmet which I've been using now for two decades odd. You've inspired me to get a proper helmet when funds allow and definitely before I do a trackday again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Superb posts from Z21, well done sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Z21 - Fantastic posts. On another note... does anyone want to buy an Rx8... i'm starting to have second thoughts. Some great info Oh no, whats wrong with the 8? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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