coldel Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Decent commentary last night - they both expertly ducked the tricky questions, reckon the police officer let May off lightly but the NHS comments hurt I am sure. Corbyn did probably the best I have seen given his shocking PMQs sessions where he fails badly. Had some tricky questions to deal with around IRA and the monarchy, still think he is economically incompetent though and wouldn't trust his with the cash. My verdict, May still appears (and Paxman slammed her on it calling her a blowhorn) as someone who talks a good game until she is challenged hard on it and back tracks often. Corbyn seems non-committal on so many issues and seems to have gone a bit daft in terms of economic claims. My fear is that I will end up voting for the least incompetent rather than someone I genuinely believe in - cannot remember a GE where I think looking at the leaders I would not be comfortable with any of them leading this country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) I really dont see any relevance to it, they never answer the questions put to them with a direct answer, spin from both sides, so what did we learn from last night. Corbyn wont admit he doesnt believe in the monarchy/trident etc etc May wont admit she said there would be no general election/doesnt think we should be out of the EU etc etc Edited May 30, 2017 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Some people wont see the relevance, personally for me its a personality test. Leadership is not all about reading from a script or presenting a manifesto to a partizan crowd, its performance under pressure against people that want to beat you. As mentioned before the content is not what I am interested in, its what sort of person they are.Its massively important attribute for any leader (refer to Toms leadership thread where we all said this) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 I don't attach much significance to it. Sounding confident under pressure isn't the preserve of people who know what they're doing - it's also no.1 on the list of essential skills for blagging your way through life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Its also a sign that you cannot handle pressure, cannot push your agenda in a meeting, that you cannot effectively lead your country without support. As I said, its not the be all and end all of leadership, but neither is just voting by looking at some bullets in a manifesto. Do you recruit someone to a company without interviewing them? Or just take them on their CV and nothing else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Yeah fair enough - I was just pointing out its shortcomings. TBH I don't trust people or believe in politics much anyway, so what do I care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 As there are shortcomings in just looking at manifestos - my personal feeling is that I take what I need from each available resource and put it together to form an opinion. I wont dispute that the content is what it is, but then so are the manifestos which by and large many parts not implemented post election anyway. Given the 'across the table' negotiation that will happen in the next couple of years, and a test of resolve, seeing May back track on many issues (especially where it is reported that she runs a much more dictatorial leadership than Corbyn) her being a weak link int he process doesn't fill me with confidence. But clearly you take what you wish, that said many people will NEVER vote Labour just because of Corbyn, but will read the press and form an opinion of him that way without actually taking the chance of actually listening to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Sorry Col, not looking to dig, but Paxman asking the same question repeatedly is hardly pressure, all either of them did was repeat the same "answer", its all either of them would do, they were hardly likely to crack and break down in tears shouting no more, no more, i hate the monarchy, or your right, i so wanted to stay in Europe dam the population for voting out! I understand completely though that we dont want someone at the helm that Junker and his cronies can bully, but its not down to one person, neither May nor Corbyn will sign anything without their advisers agreeing. The single question asked to both of them that was interesting was, what figure would you put on leaving the Eu to get the right deal, its a shame neither would or could answer as i bet they both have some kind of idea, unless your Diane Abbot, 50p, no 50 million, no wait i meant 50 billion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 You say that but both did squirm badly under certain questions and it might not look like pressure to you, but a televised question time in front of millions of people a week before the election is certainly brown pants time for those involved when any bad word said could lose you 5 percentage points over night - look at what impact they had on voter opinion when Clegg had a good run. I would certainly say there was a fair amount of pressure moreso than anyone casually observing might think. And yes of course a PM doesnt make a solus decision, but what are peoples view of Junkers vs May? Who is more resolute? Who is likely to have a stronger agenda? Ultimately they will be leading the decision making, and influencing conversations amongst their own advisors (who are exactly that advisors) - who would you rather have negotiating for you? Would you be happy with Dianne Abbot going in with her numbers vs what the EU serve up for example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 And look what happened to Clegg, ended up folding under the pressure of Dave and the Tories, hardly a good example of a strong politician under pressure and whilst he may have got some votes, it ended his career. No of course i wouldnt want Dianne Abbot fronting up, the woman is a half wit, but thats nothing to do with pressure, she just doesnt have a clue. I know we wont agree but May v Junker is nothing like last night, i dont see May or her team folding to "pressure" from Junker, she will strike a deal which she believes is the best for us, i cant see she will be pressured into any deal she thinks sells us short, maybe i am wrong on that, but it goes way way beyond Paxman asking a couple of awkward questions. Not having a pop by the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 She will strike 'the best deal' I am sure Clegg had no power, so couldn't influence any decision making, only do his best to reign in the really harsh policies the Tories might have rolled out at the time such as smashing pensioners for all their savings for instance that was certainly nothing to do with his ability to deal with pressure. Like I said, some people might want to read a manifesto and take that as their guidance, others simply read the Mail - personally I go for a few more sources of insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 She will strike 'the best deal' I am sure http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-may-no-deal-better-than-bad-deal/ :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Ah but the best deal might not be a good deal, it will be the best she can get, which could be a bad deal - or a good deal given the circumstances in which case its not a bad deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) Clegg had no power, so couldn't influence any decision making, only do his best to reign in the really harsh policies the Tories might have rolled out at the time such as smashing pensioners for all their savings for instance that was certainly nothing to do with his ability to deal with pressure. Utter nonsense, Clegg had the power when the Tories needed his party in the event of the hung parliament, no one made him form a coalition, he could have pretty much asked for anything, but he was starry eyed at the thought of being deputy pm and folded under the pressure of getting in to number 10 or two fold, how did handling pressure well as you believe do him or his party they are now trying to appeal to stoners and students (oh the voice of the poor young stoned students who cant even manage to get to a polling station) in the hope of getting some votes back, like thats going to help the country through Brexit negotiations and our future Edited May 30, 2017 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Not nonsense and common sense says so - 2010 election resulted in 300 tories and 50 lib dems, Cameron was PM, Clegg was deputy. How much influence would a coalition partner of 50 seats have on policy making in a coalition of 350 seats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) Clegg had no power, so couldn't influence any decision making, only do his best to reign in the really harsh policies the Tories might have rolled out at the time such as smashing pensioners for all their savings for instance that was certainly nothing to do with his ability to deal with pressure. Utter nonsense, Clegg had the power when the Tories needed his party in the event of the hung parliament, no one made him form a coalition, he could have pretty much asked for anything, but he was starry eyed at the thought of being deputy pm and folded under the pressure of getting in to number 10 or two fold, how did handling pressure well as you believe do him or his party they are now trying to appeal to stoners and students (oh the voice of the poor young stoned students who cant even manage to get to a polling station) in the hope of getting some votes back, like thats going to help the country through Brexit negotiations and our future That's a manipulation. Just because they are pro legalization, doesn't mean they're handing power to stoner students. As you correctly noted, said stoner students have ZERO influence on world politics anyway. However, your point is perfectly intact, I can speak from experience of my Greek peers voting for 'the underdog' at a time when experience and stability was needed. Sadly, all they got was a dog. So, I say to you (all, not you personally JP), as I tried to say at the time to the Greeks, put aside your political views and give the most capable people (whoever they be) as much power as you can during this time of 'crisis'. Sort the rest out after. Edited May 30, 2017 by Aashenfox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Ah but those 50 seats were almost priceless, so who held a gun to Cleggs head and said, forget your principals and beliefs and form a coalition? The bloke had the breaking strain of a cheese straw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 There was hardly any choice, it wasn't going to be the other parties and there were talks of Labour/LibDems plus a number of smaller parties to fill up the remainder but the deal couldnt be shaped. So it had to be the Tories plus one other and the LibDems being the biggest loser if you like in 3rd place had the seats to make up the majority with the least amount of partners in the coalition. Clearly they had to do a deal as LibDems and Tories have conflicting manifestos (as of course they should) I read post 2015 GE somewhere (can dig it out if needed) that the LibDems achieved around half their manifesto promises although all that was overshadowed by the student fees which the tories clearly wouldn't agree to as it directly opposed their view on the policy. So, for a guy with 50 backers, in a position as a deputy, against a guy who is the leader with 300 backers - thats not a bad outcome, especially for a country that lacks any experience in coalition governments unlike in Europe where they are more common place. Its a moot argument anyway, people have views on people, text tennis on here wont change either of our opinions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliveBoy Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Last night the local Lib Dem candidate and some party members knocked on my door, they asked if I knew who I was going to vote for and I said that I'm fairly sure but not 100%, so they said oh great, here's some leaflets and then they left. Really didn't inspire me that they'd listen to me if I needed to ask a question I was happy to have a chat and listen to their opinion etc, but apparently leaflets do it best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I guess if you are pretty sure you know who you are going to vote for they hedge their bets and knock on the next door where the person might say they are still unsure and therefore open to persuasion? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Not exactly out of the Trump school of sales, is it? Jehovah's Witnesses are more persistent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Anyway, in other news, YouGov thrown the cat amongst the pigeons by claiming their latest polls show a hung parliament with Tories losing seats instead of gaining them as May would have expected... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) I can't tell you how great that is for me, today my wheels are costing me a full 100 euro less than yesterday, and no less than 400 euro cheaper than this time last year. Edited May 31, 2017 by Aashenfox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Ah the wonders of currency fluctuations I moved to France to work for two years in 2007, came back to the UK in 2009, had my £ salary converted to Euros in 2007, had it converted back to £ in 2009. I got a 15% pay increase just by having favourable exchange rates in those two years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Yeah the polls have been so accurate at the last election, brexit and Trump, salt and pinch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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