The 2017 GE & Politics Thread

[Jetpilot]

My niece is off to Uni this year, she is a very bright girl, I am not, but have seen many friends go to uni, some earn more than me, some dont, however upon chatting to my niece I was surprised to hear and in her words, I am going to be earning more money than you....

 

So imho there is the downfall with uni fees, she has no concept that she will have that hanging over her head because she thinks she will earn a fortune.

[Ponsonby]

Unless I am missing something, why do people think that you need to come from a well off background to go to University?

If you have the exam grades to get in then student loans are available to everyone, and in fact will be higher if you come from a poor background.

My two girls have both been to Uni and funded themselves. Student loans for fee's and accomodation, part time jobs to pay for food and socialising.

I think its a reflection in change of charge, in my day it was 1.1k a year, for which I had/have a student loan. In my head, that's a fair figure, I wont be paying it for the rest of my life, and I got into a Uni based on my grades. I'm not sure what the annual cost is these days but last I hear it was around 3k per year. I feel it should be self funded to go to uni (inc loans), but the grades have to be good to get it.

 

One daughter went a few years ago - £3K per year tuition fee. Second daughter still there, £9K per year!

I do think that there should be a fee but £9K is ridiculous. It is also £9K irrespective of course. I can understand that maybe a science degree is expensive due to costs such as laboratory space, technicians to set up and supervise practicals and the cost of instrumentation. However, one of my daughters did English Literature. This involved very little lecture time and she even had to buy her own books so hard to see what the £9K would be paying for.

 

But my point really was not what the fees are but why it is banded around that anyone going has to come from a wealthy background when student loans are available to all?

[Jay84]

Agreed, and sometimes the uni folk struggle to even get employed after the course as life exp is as important. I hope she does earn a fortune though.

[Jay84]

I did English Lit and had to buy my own books. Linking to Jetpilot, I progressed my career in Tesco, and now run a garage. Could i have done this without my degree? Probably. I did meet the wife there, she also did English and is now head of dept on 50k+/year so 2 sides of the coin there.

[Aashenfox]

 

I think Bob Deniro should be PM. You hear me? Uh? Look at me. You hear me? Bobby Deniro. Bob. PM.

 

Whaddi say to you uh? Where's my tax? You mother fu...I swearta christ, I'll kill ya, where's my tax?

 

Nah, Danny Santoro (Joe Pesci in Casino)...he'd put their heads in a fking vice.

[coldel]

I think the problem with education is that people do not choose a path and then support that. Many go to university then try to work out what job to do after that, rather than do a degree that supports what they want to do, if that makes sense? I also have some quite grave concerns about the life skills of some students, my wife teaches at a uni (Kingston) and many stories about students who aren't interested in learning stuff like interview skills, networking etc. all important (probably moreso than the actual degree) in getting you a job - many students *think* they know how the world works in business and are due a big shock when they step out the safety net of education...anyway thats the end of rant!

[Jay84]

I agree Coldel. I learned all those skills before I even got to Uni. My 6th form taught us a few things, but experience did the rest. My son is just gong through GCSE's and is doing A levels to get a higher apprenticeship, Uni isn't (currently) even on his agenda. I will however say I think we are forced into choosing a career path too young. I'm 32 and still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

[coldel]

Yep fair point, you do change career through your life, but a plethora of uni spaces does create an effect of young adults 'drifting' through education without a thought for what they actually want to do. There is no reason why someone at 17 years old cannot sit down and think what they want to achieve over the next few years and why. And there is no problem changing direction, but having some idea on where you are going in the short term and why is highly motivating I have found.

[Ekona]

Good article here on the Labour spending plans - http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/05/labour-s-economic-programme

 

I like the last paragraph here, especially the use of the word popular; I know we've all been told lately that Brexit and Trump and Le Pen et al is the rise of populism, but tbh I'm in agreement with the author here and really what teh Labour manifesto appears to be is a Left version of populism. It's the abuse of facts to make your point based on beliefs, when ultimately none of it is realistic to achieve and it's blaming the wrong people for your own failures. It's headline grabbing, like £350M to the NHS or Build A Wall or Tax The Filthy Rich, and none of it actually solves the core issues.

[Ekona]

And I know this is childish, but...

 

 

[Jay84]

Yeah its a fair point that uni creates a collection of 'drifters' using it as a delay tactic. Obviously does't apply to all uni attendees before i get shot lol

[coldel]

I would disagree with the last paragraph in terms of its assumption that the public have 'figured it out' - I dont think the majority have at all, I think the polls deficit is a reflection of the current mess the Labour party is in more than anything?

[Ekona]

I don't think anyone who isn't a die-hard Corbynista trusts Labour with money any more. The public in general are much more clued up on this now, even if it's only on a very basic level that you can't borrow your way out of trouble.

[coldel]

I still think there is a large proportion of public out there that still think the rich shouldn't be rich and that they need to be paying in even more than they do currently. But their view of this is that its a static world and that these people just sit and work here day to day. A lot of high end taxpayers could quite easily end up outside the country, investing in tax avoidance, investments outside the UK etc. the rumblings from the likes of Goldman Sachs etc. setting up scenarios for moving business should serve as clear warning on this.

[Ekona]

Politics of jealousy. If I can't have it, why should anyone else?

[AliveBoy]

As I posted earlier in the thread, 1% of our population pay 38% of our UK income taxes, that's only 650,000 people out of a population of ~65million. Would all 650k leave, probably not, but you'd bet they'd start thinking about it if they could move somewhere which has a cheaper tax rate without a decrease in standard of living.

 

It wouldn't take long for taxing the 1% harder to cause a decrease of tax income. I know that doesn't sell papers, or attract the anti-capitalists to vote for you, but it's a genuine issue. Short of having a US tax system where you have to report your worldwide income and pay tax on it if you have a British (US in their case) passport, I can't see the solution being taxing working people more.

Edited May 17, 2017 by AliveBoy

[Ekona]

That was exactly what happened when we had the 50% rate previously: Tax incomes actually reduced, so having it at 45% for the top rate gave the best balance for maximum income.

 

 

A couple of questions for people in general, and actually you don't always get the answers you think you might...

 

1. If the government suddenly decided to tax you an extra 5%, regardless of your income, would you be happy with that on the basis the country needs the extra cash?

2. If there was a perfectly legal and approved way to reduce your tax, like Jimmy Carr but not illegal, would you take that?

[coldel]

Its a double whammy though - those 650,000 are not all individuals all working in individual corporations. If Goldman Sachs up and leave taking 4000 high earners with them you lose individual taxation plus the corporate taxation. Let along the halo effects to the economy as a whole of large corporations (love em or hate em) causing instability in the economy.

 

In other news in less than 12 months the country has now moved into a situation of a drop in year to year real wage levels (inflation vs pay rises) which will lead to a slow down in spending right on the immediate horizon...

[Jay84]

I don't think i'd notice 5% Dan. I put a bit more than that into share plans monthly. But I don't break even each month or over spend, and I'm someone who runs a 3 car house. There probably will be people who would feel it, others who'd have to sacrifice a bottle of wine/take-away/night out etc. Now I don't know much about the higher ups and corporations, but if as a people we are all skint, we won't be buying there wares. Surely its got to be give and take for all concerned.

As to the second question, probably not personally. I don't have private health care and would feel guilty not contributing but still taking. I know NHS is only one factor but its an emotive one atm for the country. Doesn't mean I don't utilise my skills and time cash in hand every now and again.

Contributing to society is something I feel is important in general. People who claim dole (I know, old school) but don't contribute or try frustrate me. I'd like to see them benefiting the local community somehow, volunteer work for the council etc. Obviously doesn't apply to people with health issues who can't work.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Jay84

[AliveBoy]

I personally think that we should adopt a US style income tax system, if you have (or are eligible for) a US passport or green card, you're required to pay US tax on your worldwide income regardless of where you're resident. If you've paid taxes on the income elsewhere, you take a tax credit to avoid double taxation. You're still contributing to the nation and the society which you clearly still benefit from and want to keep ties with for whatever reason. When you renew your passport the government check to see if you've been paying your taxes, if you have it's simple.

 

If you want to stop paying the taxes, it's pretty simple, hand back your passport and renounce your citizenship when you move elsewhere, file the next ten years worth of tax returns to show that it's not purely for tax reasons and you're away.

[coldel]

But 5% is fairly sizable - if you are on say 36k (and cannot be bothered to find an online calculator or the like so excuse inaccuracies) but you would be paying 20% tax on say 25k which is for all intents and purposes £5k, 25% would put that figure over £6k so more than a thousand quid a year extra. I know a fair few people in that tax bracket who would very much push back on that.

 

Note: appreciate the above is simple calcs but really its to provide a point

[Aashenfox]

I can give you another case from Greece on this if you like, and lessons were learned...

 

I've mentioned before the insane road tax for high cc engines (high cc in GR is anything over 1.8), so for a 1.8 the average driver pays around 400 quid a year, and this rapidly shoots up as engine sizes increase to 1200 a year for a 4 litre and over. (To put that in perspective, the AVERAGE wage for an under 40 in greece is about 700 quid a month, lowest earners take home about 450 quid/m).

 

For a short time after the crisis came down on us, the government raised these already high rates, with the result that almost everyone with a car with an engine bigger than 2.0 took it off the road. Road tax revenues went down steeply. They reintroduced the old rates a year and a half later.

 

There are many such situations where the counter-intuitive method gets the desired result. Each time they lower the taxes, more people put their plates back on their cars and they get more revenue.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Aashenfox

[Aashenfox]

By the way, couldn't help but stifle a snigger, despite the fact I don't even know what Unite is...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...n-2017-39944331

 

I've never seen such mixed messages leading up to a GE ever. I love the fact that he is now optimistic that they can win, having previously said that 200 seats would be 'a result'...yes, the worst since 1935.

 

Labour are such a giggle, they really are.

 

"What I really meant was..." is becoming their mantra.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Aashenfox

[coldel]

Right out the Dianne Abbot school of media management - class.

[AliveBoy]

This was a surprise to actually see RE the lib dems:

 

Controversially they also plan to legalise cannabis so it can be taxed and sold on the high street - which they estimate would raise £1bn in tax revenues.

 

The party commits to creating a legal market for the production and sale of the substance in its manifesto, making it one of the first political parties to fight an election on a ticket of relaxing drug laws.

 

Cannabis would only be sold to people over-18 and sales would be strictly regulated under the new proposals.