The 2017 GE & Politics Thread

[350 Russ]

So who has angry preacher mates on fb that you're ready to unfriend until its over?

 

Yep, one is my mates new mrs, I'm staying away from Facebook until it's over, makes life more simple

[Ekona]

I like trolling the Corbyn fan clubs

[Jay84]

Yeah I got one that's loopy over labour, but it think it'd be as annoying if it was any other party as its his preachyness that bothers me. He's also a huge Eddie Izzard fan, who is also a labour nut, and i can't help think its linked. I want my politicians to be political and my comedians to be funny and never the 2 shall meet lol.

[Jay84]

I like trolling the Corbyn fan clubs

I told mine we should give power back to the royals

[Jetpilot]

Case 1: 52% of people voted brexit, a tiny tiny majority. following that, when several million people realised that the revenge vote they cast against the status quo had actually won through, they were like 'oops, I didn't actually want to leave,

 

Is this factual, or purely opinion based., it may be a tiny majority % wise, but 1.5 million is a lot of people and i dont think you or anyone else can say 1.5 million people would change their mind, well of course you can as you did, but its not true

 

My feelings on voting out havent changed one bit.

[Stutopia]

I think the some of the nationalistion sums add up more than we're meant to believe, not renewing franchises doesn't cost anything and if we can go 10 years or so without doing a war, who knows what money might be saved? That said, if we're not doing a war somewhere, who are we going to be terrified of? I'm more scared of not having to be scared, isn't that the scariest thing?

 

[docwra]

So who has angry preacher mates on fb that you're ready to unfriend until its over?

 

It pays to be up on your politics, I just crush them with logic and reason

 

If someone can argue that penalising the SME's just as we are leaving the EU is a good thing then Im all ears

[docwra]

I think the some of the nationalistion sums add up more than we're meant to believe

 

I dont know how the contracts for these things work but surely with the massive and constant investment in infrastructure needed for all of the utilities you cant just grab it back from them, hence my comment regarding future profits, the costs of compensating the current owners/shareholders/staff would be enormous.

 

Id also chuck out the example of the railways, we havent properly finished nationalising them and are £44Bn in debt despite a £4Bn subsidy a year. The fact we are even considering tipping £50Bn into HS2 that wont show a return for decades says a lot ..........

 

Wars make money as well, at least they do if you have Rolls Royce, GKN and BAe/Airbus somewhere on your shores .......

[Ekona]

Nationalisation of the railways would cost an absolute fortune. I suspect the banks wouldn't exactly be interested in cutting the government any deal after they'd stripped them of millions of pounds under the new tax rules, so you can bet costs for the hire of the rolling stock would be astronomical.

[Aashenfox]

Case 1: 52% of people voted brexit, a tiny tiny majority. following that, when several million people realised that the revenge vote they cast against the status quo had actually won through, they were like 'oops, I didn't actually want to leave,

 

Is this factual, or purely opinion based., it may be a tiny majority % wise, but 1.5 million is a lot of people and i dont think you or anyone else can say 1.5 million people would change their mind, well of course you can as you did, but its not true

 

My feelings on voting out havent changed one bit.

 

Brexit: Petition for second EU referendum rejected - BBC News

 

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36754376

• 
   
  

Jul 9, 2016 - The government has rejected an online petition, signed by more than 4.1 million people, calling for a second EU referendum to be held.

 

 

Not saying all 4.1 million are bregretters, but, yeh, 90% were. We can debate the value of that petition, and the motivations for people signing it if you want, but I only refer to it so you know I'm basing my facts and figures on something more substantial than my imagination.

 

There is ZERO doubt in my mind that if a second referendum had happened at the time this petition was being signed, you'd have seen a 55/45 remain. I'm certain of it.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Aashenfox

[Jay84]

I agree on the war comment, yes war is bad and all loss of life is a tragedy, and I wish there was no war (I could win miss Derby with a speech like that) etc, but how many jobs are in the war machine? RR, BAE no to mention the troops on the ground. RR in Derby manufacture something to do with the Nuclear Subs we produce. Shut that arm of RR down, it'll be devastating to Derby's economy. I also think there are better things to be done with the railway than nationalising them. As a system of mass public transport it's dated and only seems to be any good in London. However I do like the ever expanding tram systems in towns like Nottingham (not that I use the tram, cuz race car)

[Aashenfox]

It's not just jobs, war has been the catalyst for most major technological advances over the years, but more importantly, hardship binds us, it unites us. Nowadays we fight like rats in a barrel because we're taught to be special snowflakes, but nobody wants a special snowflake, they want conformists. What modern society seems to really need is an identity. Wars used to give us that, a reason to pull together, now the world is full of hate and disrespect, cos we're forgetting what it means to unite. Add to that the population issue (and it IS an issue), and you're left with the only really logical thing to do. The 50s was a most civilised and respectful era, in terms of the way an educated man treated his fellows, but slowly we forgot why we need to be that way. Don't worry, it won't be long, there's a world war coming soon, our species needs it unfortunately.

[Jetpilot]

Not saying all 4.1 million are bregretters, but, yeh, 90% were. We can debate the value of that petition, and the motivations for people signing it if you want, but I only refer to it so you know I'm basing my facts and figures on something more substantial than my imagination.

 

4.1 million signed a petition for a 2nd referendum is fact (probably all of Scotland ) and you are right, no point discussing who they were and whether they were even British

 

90% is not a fact, its pure speculation based on you what you believe along with the zero doubt in you're mind, which is absolutely cool, but lets not try and pass it off as fact based

on a petition which was actually set up BEFORE the first referendum by a dude who voted to leave and has nothing to do with people changing their vote

[Aashenfox]

I'd say your assertions are far more of a stretch than mine (that the majority of signatures weren't british and/or that John Smith knew or cared what the motivations of the originator of the petition were).

Edited May 16, 2017 by Aashenfox

[Jetpilot]

Edit, dont bother

Edited May 16, 2017 by Jetpilot

[Aashenfox]

Yeh, agreed, I respect your view (and I say that because there are others whose views I do not, as I believe your view is appropriately considered), but we're on opposite sides of the fence, so gonna see it differently. Let's not escalate.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Aashenfox

[Stutopia]

I think the some of the nationalistion sums add up more than we're meant to believe

 

I dont know how the contracts for these things work but surely with the massive and constant investment in infrastructure needed for all of the utilities you cant just grab it back from them, hence my comment regarding future profits, the costs of compensating the current owners/shareholders/staff would be enormous.

 

Id also chuck out the example of the railways, we havent properly finished nationalising them and are £44Bn in debt despite a £4Bn subsidy a year. The fact we are even considering tipping £50Bn into HS2 that wont show a return for decades says a lot ..........

 

Wars make money as well, at least they do if you have Rolls Royce, GKN and BAe/Airbus somewhere on your shores .......

 

I wouldn't pretend to know all the sums around the cost of nationalisation, only someone with intimate knowledge of the commercials could tell you that. The franchises are a commercial shambles, little onus on private industry to invest in infrastructure, due to Network rail being the custodian, yet as soon as there's a delay NR are paying compensation to private companies. Yet despite them not being able to make any money, they can still pay dividends?

 

We're also led to believe that due to a few % increase on corporation tax by Komrade Corbyn all businesses will immediately shut up shop and flee the U.K. to trade in other countries instead. This being the case (apparently!) then it should be easy to hoover up all of the businesses that corporations don't want. Obviously it can't be both unattractive to business and also impossible to pry from their fingers!

 

And let's not pretend there's not countries in both Europe and the Americas that don't have high rates of CT yet are still attractive enough for big business to do them the huge favour of trading there!

 

[Ekona]

Big business I'm not worried about. SME I am, desperately.

[docwra]

Big business I'm not worried about. SME I am, desperately.

 

Yep, if you notice I actually mentioned SME's and not business in general.

 

Even if Brexit goes well there will be an increased cost in trading outside of the UK, theres no getting away from that. In these more difficult conditions as an SME owner Im looking at:

 

A 37% net increase in corporation tax

A 34% net increase in minimum wage

4 additional public holidays a year

A two week increase in paternity leave, statutory bereavement leave

Banning zero hours contracts and introducing guaranteed hours contracts

Removing payroll companies (this is after killing off Limited contractors to the Public Sector)

Reintroduction of Union access across the board

Equal workers rights (unfair dismissal and long term sick for temps, for instance)

Banning internships - there are some businesses where this is essential

Trade union representation at work - who is going to pay for that then? Clue: not the employee.

 

And this ......... all workers have fair access to employment and promotion opportunities ........... errrr, no, Ill employ and promote the most capable thanks, thats how REAL LIFE works.

 

But hey, as someone thats worked hard to build their own business Ive made myself into a target, what should I expect?

[Stutopia]

No need to worry about that lads, after Brexit and The Purge, we'll be making money hand over fist and there'll be tax breaks for all!

[coldel]

Ooooh brexit well a few things still irritate about this. Firstly the constant trotting out of the phrase 'the will of the people' which it clearly isn't. 16m voted in, 17.5m voted out 13.m didn't vote at all. So 37% actively voted out, the way the leave vote campaign spoke after the referendum made it sound like it was an overwhelming support of the country that made it happen. Lets face it, if the result was reversed and remain won by 3% then you could be pretty sure the Leave campaign would have led with a declaration that the country wants out and its only a matter of time and that the result cannot stand forever etc. and pushed for another vote. I read Fox's comments but for me the real indicator is in the profile of those who didn't vote, the profile is highly correlated with those voting remain (millions of young people who were more favoured to remain didn't vote). The result was a leave win, if you forced the whole country to vote, its likely remain would have won by some margin.

 

Anyway, nationalisation f railways, not an expert but I do know that the railways were build by private companies and owned in that fashion from the start and it was post war Labour that nationalised them, they never in 40 years hence managed to break even until John Major put the privatisation bill through - putting them back they way they were (most people assume railways were always nationally owned). It will cost the country to nationalise, straight out of taxpayers pockets. There are also plenty of statistics that show old British Rail, despite our derision of the current rolling stock, never performed near the levels that privately owned companies run at.

 

Anyway just my tuppence worth!

[Stutopia]

It's a shame that original spirit of competition driving investment in new technology, to be the best, has been lost and replaced exclusively with "maximising shareholder value".

[TT350]

It's not just jobs, war has been the catalyst for most major technological advances over the years, but more importantly, hardship binds us, it unites us. Nowadays we fight like rats in a barrel because we're taught to be special snowflakes, but nobody wants a special snowflake, they want conformists. What modern society seems to really need is an identity. Wars used to give us that, a reason to pull together, now the world is full of hate and disrespect, cos we're forgetting what it means to unite. Add to that the population issue (and it IS an issue), and you're left with the only really logical thing to do. The 50s was a most civilised and respectful era, in terms of the way an educated man treated his fellows, but slowly we forgot why we need to be that way. Don't worry, it won't be long, there's a world war coming soon, our species needs it unfortunately.

 

Wow, I've not read a post on a forum I agree with more than this. Exactly my feelings and thoughts on modern society.

 

So much misery comes from the conflict of ideals and interests within oneself that we're lead to believe we should aspire to at all costs because we have the right.

 

I really wish society wasn't so fractured and each of us so isolated. Which we are, really.

 

I went back on Facebook for a while, recently, and for one reason or another I was reminded how families are or can be like a hostile clan and downright savage, if only verbally, to people or other families that even in a minor way infringe on the other families and without hesitation they'll tear that person or family to shreds when they know nothing about them! The point is, they both have exactly the same goals and outlooks, but they feel they have such a right to put themselves above and beyond anything or anyone else because they're special. Snowflake syndrome.

 

Sorry...back to politics.

 

I think Bob Deniro should be PM. You hear me? Uh? Look at me. You hear me? Bobby Deniro. Bob. PM.

 

Whaddi say to you uh? Where's my tax? You mother fu...I swearta christ, I'll kill ya, where's my tax?

 

 

[Ponsonby]

Unless I am missing something, why do people think that you need to come from a well off background to go to University?

If you have the exam grades to get in then student loans are available to everyone, and in fact will be higher if you come from a poor background.

My two girls have both been to Uni and funded themselves. Student loans for fee's and accomodation, part time jobs to pay for food and socialising.

[Jay84]

Unless I am missing something, why do people think that you need to come from a well off background to go to University?

If you have the exam grades to get in then student loans are available to everyone, and in fact will be higher if you come from a poor background.

My two girls have both been to Uni and funded themselves. Student loans for fee's and accomodation, part time jobs to pay for food and socialising.

I think its a reflection in change of charge, in my day it was 1.1k a year, for which I had/have a student loan. In my head, that's a fair figure, I wont be paying it for the rest of my life, and I got into a Uni based on my grades. I'm not sure what the annual cost is these days but last I hear it was around 3k per year. I feel it should be self funded to go to uni (inc loans), but the grades have to be good to get it.