Just driven a hydrogen car *MIRAI

[Zeezeebaba]

I think we've agreed that hydrogen takes to much energy to produce so I agree it looks like a non starter for passenger cars. However I can see it's application in commercial and haulage sectors being viable as a range extender.

I believe we also agree that the production of electricity needs to increase at a pace utilising renewable sources.

A point of note is I'm also a trekkie

 

The day will come I'm sure where I may become excited about my impending EV. At the moment though I'm still planning the next ICE fix.

Maybe I should have stuck to model trains, a hobby I had as a kid and one that wouldnt be ruined by progress.It would certainly still rank as the closest thing

I've ever had to an EV

Alas after a motorcycle fad I turned my attention to cars.

I'm doing my bit for the environment by ditching the Z for a lotus elise, happy days and ones which I intend to make the most of.

Beam me up scotty. ....

[gangzoom]

^^ For me the Model X has allowed me to pursue the fun of a Sunday morning drive, whilst carrying out the duties of a family load mover and experience something new/exciting all at the same time.

 

If nothing else let me reassure you the good old British B road will be just as much to drive along in future as it is now, the way the X carves through the twisty bits is rather alarming given it's size/weight.....But I very much doubt your be doing it in a hydrogen fuel cell car .

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by gangzoom

[davey_83]

Totally unfair to compare EV and hydrogen directly, the infrastruction for EV at present out weighs Hydro refills. Hydro cars produce power, EV's consume it.

 

Where were EV's 15yrs ago.... It's hydro first potential mass produced passenger vehicle the concept is way more interesting than EV and can potentially appeal to more buyers once the government back it's and the infrastructure is in place.

 

I'd be expecting for that cost Tesla to offer free charge points at home, install and KW/P at least Toyota give free refills for life granted not a great help today, however going forward who knows.

[gangzoom]

Totally unfair to compare EV and hydrogen directly, the infrastruction for EV at present out weighs Hydro refills. Hydro cars produce power, EV's consume it.

 

Where were EV's 15yrs ago.... It's hydro first potential mass produced passenger vehicle the concept is way more interesting than EV and can potentially appeal to more buyers once the government back it's and the infrastructure is in place.

 

I'd be expecting for that cost Tesla to offer free charge points at home, install and KW/P at least Toyota give free refills for life granted not a great help today, however going forward who knows.

 

How does a hydrogen fuel cell 'produce power' without fuel?? Does it not follow the laws of thermodynamics?? Where does the hydrogen come from??

 

I did get a free home charger installed courtesy of the UK government, and have access to 'free fuel for life' via Tesla superchargers. Current cost of installing hydrogen fuel stations are between $2.5-4 MILLION EACH, excluding on going running costs. My £250 'free' home charger that ive used to drive 15k with my last two EVs seem somehow that bit for realistic interms of mass public deployment:).

 

The only interesting thing about the MIRAI is how slow, impractical, and irrelevant it is compared to a similar priced EV.

 

As I've said car companies need to see a future in the products they are developing, hydrogen will have a place in niche areas but not for personal transportation. Toyota is struggling sell those things, they have shifted about 800 of cars over the last 12 month globally... Tesla sold nearly that many cars in just the UK last month, and set to hit 100K/year for this financial year.

 

Price clearly isn't the issue holding back sales as the cheapest Tesla starts at £60k.

 

Ultimately if you really believe in hydrogen fuel cell cars do what I did, put your money where your mouth is and buy one and let us know how you get on with it .

Edited April 10, 2017 by gangzoom

[davey_83]

Fuel Cell Stack - The Oxygen and Hydrogen chemically react within the fuel cell stack to generate power in the form of electricity.

Edited April 10, 2017 by davey_83

[gangzoom]

Fuel Cell Stack - The Oxygen and Hydrogen chemically react within the fuel cell stack to generate power in the form of electricity.

 

Where/how do you get the pure hydrogen that is needed for the fuel stack???

 

The only place in the natural world where pure hydrogen exist is rather difficult to access....Icarus apparently tried to get to that place but that didn't work out too well for him

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

 

Where as electricity, you can literally get that from a sack of spuds...But I admit your need a lot of sacks to power a car .

 

 

Actually just thinking it through if you really follow through the path of energy transfer, a battery powered EV that charges up using electricity generated from a solar panel is by definition a hydrogen fuelled car. Since hydrogen is what fuels the sun, so in a round about way I agree, hydrogen as a fuel is the future, but given the sun was also responsible for most of the life on this planet before it died off and became fossilised into a liquid fuel as is every single car that is currently on the road .

Edited April 10, 2017 by gangzoom

[Aashenfox]

Or create the sun on the earth...

 

http://www.iflscience.com/physics/germanys-fusion-reactor-creates-hydrogen-plasma-world-first/

[davey_83]

[gangzoom]

^Nice advert, expect hydrogen isn't a fuel, it's an element, like carbon.

 

What's the difference between graphite and diamond? Both are made from carbon.

 

Saying hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe therefore makes a good fuel is like saying turning graphite into diamond is easy because both are made up of carbon.

 

The distinction between fuel and energy is simple physics, if you cannot understand the difference between the two than maybe that explains why you think Toyota has some how made a magical car that generates energy from thin air using the magic of a fuel stack- which by the way is essentially a catalyst.

[davey_83]

Personally like most i don’t see myself buying any EV or Fuel Cell vehicle any time soon, well not until i have little choice but too. I’ve driven both EV’s and now fuel cell however while they’re feats of engineering i don’t find them exciting at all from an ownership view. Part of the excitement for me is not only the speed, but the looks, feel, ability to personalise and sound of a vehicle - yes i know these days are numbered.

 

Toyota aren’t the biggest car manufacture in the world because they waste money or make many poor decisions. Im not going to pretend im smarter than their boffins and to be fair neither is anyone else on the forum. Almost everything we buy is a personal choice, nothing more

 

As a side note, can i ask what made you choose to go EV and specifically the vehicle you did?

[gangzoom]

 

As a side note, can i ask what made you choose to go EV and specifically the vehicle you did?

 

I was saving up for a F10 M5 or XJ supersport to replace my 335i, even had the Quattroporte on the list.

 

My wife than went and bought a Lexus IS300H hybrid after nearly going for a petrol superchargered XF.

 

I wasn't sure about the IS initially, it seemed like a Prius in drag, but after a quick test drive the 'EV' mode really intrigued me, moving around with no noise just seemed so bizzar.

 

As Mitz will tell you at the time I was throwing money onto the 335i, and nearly pressed the button on some hybrid turbos aiming to hit 450bhp without going meth/upping boost too much. Than out of the blue I noticed a thread on Pistonheads called 'Nissan Leaf deals'

 

 

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=247&t=1490643

 

 

I took a quick look and it turned out for less money than a pair of turbos I could try one of these EV thingys for 2 years....I also started to look at Tesla, but there was no way I was about to drop £50k+ on an electric car built by some Americans with little track record.

 

I than booked a 48hr test drive in a Leaf and the rest as they say is history

 

 

 

 

 

I always believe action speaks louder than words, life is for living and trying different things. I've been really lucky to have owned some amazing petrol cars, and will remember fondly all the experiences. But am now also more excited about the future of the car as I have ever been.... I can see why people get worried, skeptical, even angry about EVs, but trust me, as a formal petrol addict all I can say is there is life beyond the forecourt and it really isn't all that bad .

 

Oh and owners are just as keen to gather in random car parks on a sunny weekend to look at different coloured versions of their own car as some of you guys!!

 

Hydrogen fuel cell cars like the MIRAI though, sorry but I rather take the bus than be associated with that monstrosity. My feelings towards fuel cell cars are probably as strong as some people on here towards EVs, I've simply yet to hear a single fact about fuel cell cars that make scientific sense rather than marketing BS, and this thread hasn't changed that.

Edited April 12, 2017 by gangzoom

[coldel]

I agree with GZ that if Hydrogen was going to work, it should have by now on a bigger scale than it is. I get that they are meant to be safe but am I the only one who thinks of giant air balloons going bang on grainy black and white film footage!

 

I saw what you wrote about living life to the full GZ and I think that given the limited life span of petrol cars and what they bring I am making sure I get a chance at it whilst I can. EV will be plentiful in 20-30 years I can have a play with them then. So yes I am worried that petrol cars will be phased out as quite simply they sound better and give a better experience when going out for a drive (for me) I was sat behind an M5 on the A316 the other day and it was a theatre of sound coming out the back it was wonderful. I don't think I get angry at EV cars, they are whats really only on the table as a viable alternative at the moment to petrol, but I do not agree with the view that there will always be a plentiful supply of free electricity to power these at scale at the moment thats really not the case at all. I also worry about the future of car clubs if meets look like the one above, of generic looking identical family saloons

 

Funny someone mentioned back in the thread about trains - I think it could well be the same thing with cars, I have traveled on the bullet trains in Europe and Japan many times, tech marvels with astounding speed that blow your mind. But I also got on a steam train at the Thomas Tank Engine event and that was a better experience by far than the bullet train doing 180mph. In 40 years there will be a craving for people to get a ride in my noisy old petrol car I am sure

[Zeezeebaba]

I did have a Sinclair C5 when I was a lad

I'm sure there will be enthusiast EVs at some stage. Even though manual gearboxes are not necessary in EVs I'm hoping for something along those lines. Part of the fun for me is having total control over the machine and driving it. Driving isn't just about speed or turning corners it's about feeling connected to the car and the road. EVs just like Audis lack that soul that vibe that essence.

When automotive manufacturers crack that nut I'm in, until then EVs are nothing but another gadget to another tool to get from A to B.

I'm sure everything will be fine, a nice drive out on a Sunday and I can see it now. You get ten miles from the house and the car tells the house "we will be home shortly", the house responds by turning the lights on and the heating and opening the garage door as you come up the drive

 

[Zeezeebaba]

One of my clients is Thatcham Research, it's where I first saw a Leaf. They currently have several Tesla model S vehicles in various states after crash testing etc. I've had a good poke around and they are fairly impressive cars, not a huge fan of the dash (huge slab of touchscreen) but otherwise pleasant enough.

They have also been working on driverless tech and I've seen that develop over the last 7 years or so. Originally they were actually rigging up mechanical drivers e.g. hydraulic push rods on the pedals and rotational mechanisms on the wheel, like a cyber driver. They did this to help develop the software for driverless vehicles.

Now it's progressed to a normal interior and the only sign of the development process is the operators laptop on the passenger seat.

Thatcham work closely with the insurance industry testing and development of tech and composing repair schedules and methods for new cars.

I could have made a fortune in press shot photography over the years having seen many pre release vehicles but my job and client confidentiality comes first.

All interesting stuff.

[gangzoom]

I also worry about the future of car clubs if meets look like the one above, of generic looking identical family saloons

 

 

Just don't go buying a BMW!!

 

Apparently this is a 'club meet' and not just a photo of the local car park

Edited April 12, 2017 by gangzoom

[Aashenfox]

Yep, that's definitely a meet, wife sitting in X3/X5 (who the f can tell any more) texting friends or facebooking cos it's cold outside. Unmistakeable.

[Strudul]

E53 X5.

 

Headlights are the easiest giveaway, but yeh, all BMWs looks the same

Edited April 12, 2017 by Strudul

[Zeezeebaba]

Yeah all the blokes are discussing split expansion tanks and blown turbo seals.

[formatzero]

I have read an article where it was suggested the way forward for hydrogen was to convert it to liquid form,then all existing fuel stations would be able to supply it !

[gangzoom]

I have read an article where it was suggested the way forward for hydrogen was to convert it to liquid form,then all existing fuel stations would be able to supply it !

 

Hydrogen fuel cell cars HAVE to use hydrogen liquid form, but pure hydrogen molecules want to chemically react with everything hence doesn't exist in nature apart from in the middle of stars where the gravitational mass keeps it in place.

 

To get pure hydrogen to liquid form you have to compress it to 700bar or 10,000 PSI. That's not a typo, 10,000 PSI is equivalent to a force of 700tons/sq foot, that's roughly the same as two fully loaded 747s compressed into the size of 2-3 cerale boxes!!! Frankly you need your head checking if you think these attributes make liquid hydrogen the 'ideal' fuel to replace petrol.... Oh and all this is bound by the laws of physics, no clever boffin is going to find a way to suddenly over come the inherent instability of hydrogen.

 

The thought existing petrol stations can be simply 'converted' to manage hydrogen instead of liquid petroleum is the biggest fake news and lie spun by oil companies regarding hydrogen fuel cell cars. Currently hydrogen fuel stations costs between £2-4 million each to build, and thats without on going maintenance or hydrogen distribution costs. That compares to about £10k for an EV rapid charger install which has zero ongoing costs aside from electricity.

 

The reason oil companies love spreading love for hydrogen is because it keeps them relevant. If everyone fueled their cars from home why on earth would anyone go to a Shell/BP forecourt??

 

But even big oil isn't stupid enough to waste their actual money on hydrogen, Shell has been talking up hydrogen for decades but yet to act by installing hydrogen stations, but guess what Shell is doing

 

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/31/shell-ev-chargers/

Edited April 15, 2017 by gangzoom

[ilogikal1]

Shell will still make money from filling cars up with electricity instead of petrol, of course, but savvy Abbott has spotted a bonus revenue stream: Selling coffee and sandwiches to drivers waiting around for enough juice to get home.

.

 

...and lunch and dinner either side of that coffee.

[formatzero]

I have read an article where it was suggested the way forward for hydrogen was to convert it to liquid form,then all existing fuel stations would be able to supply it !

 

Hydrogen fuel cell cars HAVE to use hydrogen liquid form, but pure hydrogen molecules want to chemically react with everything hence doesn't exist in nature apart from in the middle of stars where the gravitational mass keeps it in place.

 

To get pure hydrogen to liquid form you have to compress it to 700bar or 10,000 PSI. That's not a typo, 10,000 PSI is equivalent to a force of 700tons/sq foot, that's roughly the same as two fully loaded 747s compressed into the size of 2-3 cerale boxes!!! Frankly you need your head checking if you think these attributes make liquid hydrogen the 'ideal' fuel to replace petrol.... Oh and all this is bound by the laws of physics, no clever boffin is going to find a way to suddenly over come the inherent instability of hydrogen.

 

The thought existing petrol stations can be simply 'converted' to manage hydrogen instead of liquid petroleum is the biggest fake news and lie spun by oil companies regarding hydrogen fuel cell cars. Currently hydrogen fuel stations costs between £2-4 million each to build, and thats without on going maintenance or hydrogen distribution costs. That compares to about £10k for an EV rapid charger install which has zero ongoing costs aside from electricity.

 

The reason oil companies love spreading love for hydrogen is because it keeps them relevant. If everyone fueled their cars from home why on earth would anyone go to a Shell/BP forecourt??

 

But even big oil isn't stupid enough to waste their actual money on hydrogen, Shell has been talking up hydrogen for decades but yet to act by installing hydrogen stations, but guess what Shell is doing

 

https://www.engadget...ll-ev-chargers/

Very interesting read.I have been interested in getting an electric vehicle as my daily but staying in a terraced house charging at home is not viable.Until charging issues are resolved probably hybrid is the best I will manage .

[gangzoom]

Car magazine just did a piece on the Honda Clarity Fuel cell car.

 

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/honda/honda-clarity-fuel-cell-2017-review/

 

This line sums up why oil companies are keen for hydrogen to succed petroleum.

 

`Currently, Clarity drivers will pay about £85 for a full tank (or tanks in this car’s case) of hydrogen'

 

It essentially allows existing petrol chemical industry to stay relevant.

 

Contrast that to my battery EVs, the X has now done 2300 miles, I used 650kWh of really cheap overnight electricity, total cost of electricity £46.

[Zeezeebaba]

I suppose this is all a mute issue in reality there is still a couple of decades left for petroleum. Small capacity turbos and hybrids.

As stated before some people are not in a position to charge a car at home and there's still plenty of oil left.

Diesels for private use well that's the first to fall by the looks of it.

[Aashenfox]

*moot. Sorry, can't help it. It's one of those minor orthographic errors, where folks more commonly use the incorrect term (mute), because the meaning is still intact with the word mute, one of the reasons I bother correcting people when I see it.

 

Really, my apologies, I don't mean to be pedantic, I'm genuinely trying to promote correct usage! The other one like that that drives me crazy lately is 'I could care less'...what they mean is they couldN'T care less! Drives me nuts.