Reccomended geo, little help

[Rob350]

Hi guys,

So iv just received 4 brand new yoko AD08 Rs, im going for fitting and full alignment on Friday.

 

Was wondering what to tell the alignment people what I want??

 

I want it close to standard settings so my tyres last, but was thinking of telling them to add say an extra degree of camber onto stock setting if you know what i mean, just to make it that little better in the corners.

 

So say stock is 1 degree negative camber all round, would going 2 degrees all round make much differance? Is an extra 1 degree a lot??

 

I'm on 18" rays, lowered 30mm eibach springs, adjustable rear camber arms and toe bolts, front is all stock apart from the 30mm springs obviously.

 

I would really like abit of advice off you guys, you all know these cars so well.

 

Cheers

Rob

[Ekona]

Tbh, a decent alignment guy should be able to figure out what you want just by telling him that you want minimum tyre wear but would like it better in the corners. Define better though: Sharper turn in, or more grip mid-corner? And you can't have both, as one trades off against the other! Just describe the handling traits you're after, and assuming you've gone somewhere decent then let them do the rest. However, minimum tyre wear and extra cornering are mutually exclusive too, so decide in percentages where your priorities lie.

 

Avoid giving numbers unless you're sure of what you're doing. But 2 deg at the rear is far too much for AD08s, that's more suited to MPSC2s. If anyone does give you exact numbers then just remember that that works for them, and it may not work for you. I tend to avoid giving exact settings now for this very reason.

[Lewis_UK]

Last year or so I went through F1AutoCenters for new tyres all round and there £100 plus alignment.

 

When I started to suggest incorporating my "own" settings they basically cut me off saying "we're not allowed to" and that "Nissan give us stock alignment config and our machine tries to match it as best as possible.

 

So I guess if you want your own settings you have to go to a "proper"? alignment place if that's the case.

[Rob350]

I was thinking of telling them to set the car within the factory specs but to the more aggressive side. E.G

 

Rear camber -2.2 to -1.1 is factory spec... so I'd go -1.5

 

As for front toe I'd like a better turn in to elimate abit of the understeery characteristics,

 

Front toe 0.00 to 0.10 is factory... so I'd go 0.00 (maybe even -0.01 each side) for turn in

Rear toe 0.05 to 0.10 is factory... so I'd go 0.08 each side

 

What do you think? Am I on the right lines for toe settings?

 

As for rear camber, (ekona) you say neg 2 is too much for AD08R... how is it too much for my yokos but not not for the Michelin? I'm genuinely interested Im not trying to sound cocky or anything.

 

If neg 2 is too much, then 1.5 maybe??

 

I'm not expecting you to give me exact numbers for my setup, just some good advice and pointers to help me decide.

 

Cheers

Edited April 6, 2017 by Rob350

[Rob350]

Googled factory specs

 

http://my350z.com/forum/wheels-and-tires/470510-factory-alignment-specs.html

[Ekona]

Seriously, just speak to the guy who does it and explain what you want, it's so much better than guessing numbers I know what I like, but I like a very unstable car so it really doesn't work for everyone. However good text is, there's nothing like actually speaking to someone to properly communicate what you're after. Not trying to be awkward, this is something I've had to learn the hard way via experience! However, going to the extreme of OEM is not a bad place to start, however you may well find you want to go well past it, or maybe not that far at all. Very hit and miss, a good place should do any adjustments FOC the same day if you can instantly feel you're not happy with it.

 

In terms of rear camber and tyres, I'm working on what I was told by CG when I was there. About 1.5deg is about as far as you ever need to go with road tyres, so I'd say that's about spot on The difference is in the compound make up of the tyre, so the MPSC2 is much harder on the inner edge to account for the extra wear expected: Regular road tyres will just go overheat something chronic.

[Olly350z]

Have to agree with Dan on this, any alignment place worth its salt will listen to what you want. Theres a place locally to me called Hunter performance who have done all my car, specifically a full fast road set up on my Honda. Once dialled it was glorious

 

As for camber, Id be looking more at the compounds of the trye. All are different and will react differently. I had T1Rs on the Honda and it gripped like poo to a shovel, but wore out quickly. One suggestion I'd make is have the tyres filled with nitrogen instead of air. Doesnt react anywhere near as air to temperature changes, and IMO provided a much firmer but smoother ride. Well worth the 12 quid it cost!

[Rob350]

Thanks for the reply, I understand what you mean with the camber/tyres now, i didnt realise that different tyres had that difference from inner to outer.

 

The thing is I'm not going to a race place to be able to talk numbers and dynamics with, the nearest recommend place is 30mins away and £150.

Im going to a decent tyre place near me iv always used and iv always had my specs set to the middle of factory specs and then just mastered the way the car handles.

 

But this time I'd like to try and make the car a little bit better with an educated guess base (hence aggressive side of oem)

 

I'm not after the the car to handle perfectly to knock as many 10ths off my lap times as possible I'm just after a decent basic setup to try and get rid of at least some of the understeer

Edited April 6, 2017 by Rob350

[Ekona]

Anyone who understands their craft should be able to help. If they're only capable of reading off a screen then that's not somewhere I'd be comfortable going tbh. Give them a call beforehand and see if they sound like they can help?

 

30 mins drive for a perfect handling car is nothing, I drove 2.5 hrs for mine! £150 is a fair price too.

[RobPhoboS]

BTW, it's usually toe that causes tyre wear at the edges, not strictly camber.

I usually go with half a degree less on the rear compared to the front, approximately.

(ie -2.5 front, -2 rear)

As long as you have the adjustable parts, have a play.

The place I tend to go to will dial it in, I'll go and drive it and then comment on it, we can adjust it further if needs be.

I'm set more for road/track rather than all out track work.

[Rob350]

It's been done today, I ended up with....

 

Front camber -1.4 (cant adjust this as dont have front adjustable arms and im lowered 30mm)

 

Rear camber -1.5 both sides

 

Front toe 0.00 both sides (I asked for slightly toe out)

 

Rear toe 0.00 both sides (I asked for slightly toe in)

 

The ad08Rs are brand new so a little bit slippy at the min, im going to give them a few 100miles to bed in a little, then give it a good thrashing and go from there.

 

What do you all think??

 

If I was to change anything I'd do 0.1deg toe out at the front and maybe 0.5 deg toe in at the rear.

[Ekona]

Why? You've not really driven it to know if the current setup suits you, or how you want the tyres to wear. Could be perfect as it is

 

Why did they not give you what you asked for though?

[RobPhoboS]

Why did they not give you what you asked for though?

 

Sounds like he's on stock kit.

[Rob350]

I'm not too sure, when I first went in I asked for my own specs, they said no problem but their machine does it in mm and I asked for degrees but its ok he said he do the maths and convert it....

So I asked for 0.08 toe in in the rear

And 0.05 toe out on the front.

When I got back he said heed got them close but their machine only goes to 1 decimal place, so i thought no problem, then looked at the result sheet and heed made it 0.00 toe in the rear (surly you would have rounded it up from 0.08 to 0.1 instead of rounding down)

then front toe he rounded down again to 0.00 from 0.05, but me being too British just accepted and thought in reality 0.05 degrees really isn't going to make any differance really unless I was Lewis Hamilton lol

 

The only thing I could fault is the fact I asked for 0.08 toe in on the rear and he gave me 0.00

 

I defo needed an alignment though, front left toe was -3.4 and front right toe was +4.1

[Rob350]

Why did they not give you what you asked for though?

 

Sounds like he's on stock kit.

 

The front is all stock but I had just fitted adjustable camber arms and toe bolts on the rear thinking the rear was massively out.

Before alignment I had -1.3ish camber both rear sides and i asked for -1.5, so i could have probably got away without rear camber arms with the setup I've got

[Rob350]

Why? You've not really driven it to know if the current setup suits you

 

Iv been doing ALOT of reading recently and front toe out helps turn in but loses high speed stability, so i thought just a little bit toe out as a happy medium.

 

And rear toe in helps rear stability, but also as you accelerate the rears naturally"twist" in a toe out direction because of the slight play in the rubber bushes if you know what I mean , so i thought some toe in would compensate for that.

 

In all.. a lot of theory not so much practice lol

[Ekona]

Next time, go somewhere else This is why it's more important to go somewhere who can give you what you want, rather than who is closest/cheapest.

 

Alignment should be done yearly at the minimum, more often if you drive on really bad roads or like to nudge kerbs.

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

What Alignment Rig machine was being used?

 

Even swapped across to read in MM it will read down to 0.1mm, every machine can be run in degree/min and MM sounds like they didn't understand the machine they where using.

 

These cars rear need some rear toe in as the suspension gives very little - toe gain when squatting under load.

 

Front camber if you dont have adjustable arms the gain you get from lowering is better than stock setting .

 

Rear camber we run anything from -1.0 degree up to -2 degree for a trackday car.

 

Front toe I would run parallel toe out will make the car to "pointy" to direct.