Scottish Referendum

[Jetpilot]

but if we were independent WE could decide if we want to reapply

 

So why would you vote for "independence" only to loose that independence by joining the Eu? The complaints about Westminster would just be replaced with complaints about Brussels, see Brexit, remember the cries of the "unelected" controlling our country (rightly or wrongly).

 

If your going for independence, fill your boots, we can hardly complain in our current situation, but with hope, we will be independent, but Scotland wont!

Edited April 6, 2017 by Jetpilot

[Stutopia]

but if we were independent WE could decide if we want to reapply

 

So why would you vote for "independence" only to loose that independence by joining the Eu?

 

The best reason would be to be independent of the Tory Westminster government and a part of the EU one, there's no downside to that deal.

[Ekona]

Independence just because of a Tory government that won't be here in ten years is a seriously dodgy reason to risk everything.

[coldel]

A mandate is the authority to carry out a policy regarded as given by the electorate to a party winning an election. Scotland voted for this but Theresa May can tell us to get back in our box. Let's remember that during the first Indy ref we were told that If Scotland stayed we'd be "valued and equal members of the UK" Doesn't feel like it. And for the record I'm not actually a huge fan of the SNP. They're a little left wing for my taste but they're a means to an end. And regarding Europe yes we may need to leave with the rest of the UK but if we were independent WE could decide if we want to reapply or do a Norway and pay for certain benefits without full membership.

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

Scotland voted to stay in the UK (more overwhelmingly than Brexit) and are a valued and equal member of the UK, when it came to Brexit each vote cast by someone in Scotland was as valuable as someone casting it in England or Wales. What that doesn't mean is that Scotland has an equal say 1:1 as England when the majority of the population is in England. So Scotland had devolved powers to better self govern, but in terms of deciding constitutional change Scotland as part of the UK (as they voted for) had an equal and fair vote. The feeling will always be there that 'its not fair' because such a huge amount of population lives in the South East 10m in London alone which is more than Scotland in total so I get why it feels that way.

 

I do however agree that any huge constitutional change with the combination of the devolved powers means that Scotland has the right to ask for this, just that I do not agree with the implementation where NS deliberately wants to have it whilst the UK negotiates the exit from the EU, as that gives NS more capability to focus on her objectives whilst the UK government has its resources elsewhere. It makes complete sense to know the outcome of the exit before voting for this.

[Stutopia]

Independence just because of a Tory government that won't be here in ten years is a seriously dodgy reason to risk everything.

 

I'd agree if I thought it'll just be 10 years, but I think it's the long term path. Electoral boundaries are being redrawn which further helps the Tories. England is drifting ever more rightward and introspective. The gap between rich and poor continues to grow. We just adopted a two child policy in the U.K. - just like the bastion of human rights China. We're supposed to be living in terror, to give up our privacy. I'm old enough to remember that the current lunatics are a total organisational shambles to the huge attacks in Manchester, Warrington, London in the 80s and 90s. I don't remember all the terror hysteria back then. The fear of anything foreign or different has gone berserk. Let's be totally honest, a handful of Bankers crashed the economy 10 years ago, since then the only thing that's been achieved is that over 50% of the electorate have been convinced that it was really European migrants that did it

 

Anyway, that's one for a different thread. Sorry for my digression.

[Ekona]

I hope it's not just 10 years and that it's for the long term, but sadly the nutters always get back in power eventually...

[Jetpilot]

but if we were independent WE could decide if we want to reapply

 

So why would you vote for "independence" only to loose that independence by joining the Eu?

 

The best reason would be to be independent of the Tory Westminster government and a part of the EU one, there's no downside to that deal.

Independence just because of a Tory government that won't be here in ten years is a seriously dodgy reason to risk everything.

 

I'd agree if I thought it'll just be 10 years, but I think it's the long term path. Electoral boundaries are being redrawn which further helps the Tories. England is drifting ever more rightward and introspective. The gap between rich and poor continues to grow. We just adopted a two child policy in the U.K. - just like the bastion of human rights China. We're supposed to be living in terror, to give up our privacy. I'm old enough to remember that the current lunatics are a total organisational shambles to the huge attacks in Manchester, Warrington, London in the 80s and 90s. I don't remember all the terror hysteria back then. The fear of anything foreign or different has gone berserk. Let's be totally honest, a handful of Bankers crashed the economy 10 years ago, since then the only thing that's been achieved is that over 50% of the electorate have been convinced that it was really European migrants that did it

 

Anyway, that's one for a different thread. Sorry for my digression.

 

The country was no better off after 12 years of Nu Labour led into an illegal war, massive black hole of borrowing, lets face it, it doesnt really matter who is heading the ship and i would still bet NS would be pushing for another referendum.

[Stutopia]

Agreed JP, I've no time for blue Labour under Blair either.

[Ekona]

See, that was the only time I've voted Labour. New Labour under Blair in the early years was exactly what the country needed IMHO. The war thing I can take or leave as I have no particular feelings over it either way, it was just a shame they were so massively underprepped for the financial crisis. That said, would any government have done any better? I don't know.

[Angrybiker]

but if we were independent WE could decide if we want to reapply

 

So why would you vote for "independence" only to loose that independence by joining the Eu? The complaints about Westminster would just be replaced with complaints about Brussels, see Brexit, remember the cries of the "unelected" controlling our country (rightly or wrongly).

 

If your going for independence, fill your boots, we can hardly complain in our current situation, but with hope, we will be independent, but Scotland wont!

You must see the difference between the EU and UK. No? The EU is a supranational organisation in which every nation has a voice. Unlike the UK where the only voice that matters is England. With regards to currency we could go with a Scottish pound or Euro. I wouldn't be too fussed about losing the pound. Ps Ekona. Comparing Scotland to Dorset is exactly the problem. Scotland is a country in a supposed partnership of Nations. Our vote as a country should count for something. As it is Nissan can have a special deal for access to common market but Scotland can't?

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

 

[Jetpilot]

Every country may have a voice but you will have to abide by the majority vote of those countries, which is exactly what you do now being part of the UK.

[Ekona]

Ps Ekona. Comparing Scotland to Dorset is exactly the problem. Scotland is a country in a supposed partnership of Nations. Our vote as a country should count for something. As it is Nissan can have a special deal for access to common market but Scotland can't?

But your vote does count, it counts exactly the same as mine as I too voted Remain. Why should it count any more? And how do you explain the West Lothian question that still hasn't been sorted, but stacks in the Scottish parliament's favour? Holyrood still hasn't used some of the devolved powers it asked for, so why is it desperate for more? This is what I can't understand. We hear a lot that Scotland is treated poorly, but I just don't see it at all.

 

Nissan won't get any special access to the common market, they'll have to abide by the final deal the UK gets.

 

 

Btw this is a great debate, really enjoying this and thank you for taking the time to respond with honest answers

[Ekona]

Every country may have a voice but you will have to abide by the majority vote of those countries, which is exactly what you do now being part of the UK.

True, part of the reason I think folks wanted out of the EU. Really, those that bring the biggest amount to the table (in whatever figures you want to use) should have *more* of a say than the smaller countries, not the same. As part of the UK I see Scotland punching well above it's weight, whereas if it goes it alone it's a tiny fish in a big pond. Which is fine if that's what the Scottish people want, btw.

[Angrybiker]

Ps Ekona. Comparing Scotland to Dorset is exactly the problem. Scotland is a country in a supposed partnership of Nations. Our vote as a country should count for something. As it is Nissan can have a special deal for access to common market but Scotland can't?

But your vote does count, it counts exactly the same as mine as I too voted Remain. Why should it count any more? And how do you explain the West Lothian question that still hasn't been sorted, but stacks in the Scottish parliament's favour? Holyrood still hasn't used some of the devolved powers it asked for, so why is it desperate for more? This is what I can't understand. We hear a lot that Scotland is treated poorly, but I just don't see it at all.

 

Nissan won't get any special access to the common market, they'll have to abide by the final deal the UK gets.

 

 

Btw this is a great debate, really enjoying this and thank you for taking the time to respond with honest answers

Yeah mate my vote counts as much as yours does, but i feel that if Scotland as a country voted overwhelmingly for/against something it should count for something. If not then we're not really a country, just a region of the UK. Not so much a partnership of Nations, more an ex-nation annexed into 'England and friends' . I really believe that Scotland could do well as a ln independent country. Not to turn the argument on it head too much but genuinely how do you think England would do as an Independent country, given that Scotland only has around 8% of the population but has 65% of UK natural gas production, 96% of the crude oil production, 92% of Hydroelectric production, 81% of the coal reserves, 60% of the sea area and fish landings and 100% of Scotch whiskey 😉 etc. England's fortunes are largely tied to a financial sector which (if the rumblings are true) will be jumping on the Eurostar and heading for mainland Europe... not to mention the UK's spiraling debt. Not being a dick... or at least not trying to be. Genuinely interested to hear your thoughts

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

 

[Jetpilot]

Ps Ekona. Comparing Scotland to Dorset is exactly the problem. Scotland is a country in a supposed partnership of Nations. Our vote as a country should count for something. As it is Nissan can have a special deal for access to common market but Scotland can't?

But your vote does count, it counts exactly the same as mine as I too voted Remain. Why should it count any more? And how do you explain the West Lothian question that still hasn't been sorted, but stacks in the Scottish parliament's favour? Holyrood still hasn't used some of the devolved powers it asked for, so why is it desperate for more? This is what I can't understand. We hear a lot that Scotland is treated poorly, but I just don't see it at all.

 

Nissan won't get any special access to the common market, they'll have to abide by the final deal the UK gets.

 

 

Btw this is a great debate, really enjoying this and thank you for taking the time to respond with honest answers

Yeah mate my vote counts as much as yours does, but i feel that if Scotland as a country voted overwhelmingly for/against something it should count for something. If not then we're not really a country, just a region of the UK. Not so much a partnership of Nations, more an ex-nation annexed into 'England and friends' . I really believe that Scotland could do well as a ln independent country. Not to turn the argument on it head too much but genuinely how do you think England would do as an Independent country, given that Scotland only has around 8% of the population but has 65% of UK natural gas production, 96% of the crude oil production, 92% of Hydroelectric production, 81% of the coal reserves, 60% of the sea area and fish landings and 100% of Scotch whiskey ������ etc. England's fortunes are largely tied to a financial sector which (if the rumblings are true) will be jumping on the Eurostar and heading for mainland Europe... not to mention the UK's spiraling debt. Not being a dick... or at least not trying to be. Genuinely interested to hear your thoughts

 

Personally i think you are being anything but a dick, rational discussion without the braveheart cries and no substance

 

If you do vote out, dont forget you will be in exactly the same position as the UK is now, so how much of the national debt will Scotland have to take on, i.e how much are you going to have to pay to leave and there are so many other things to consider that the UK exiting the EU didnt have to consider, currency, national bank, health service, police force, border control, highways, education, personally i think its monumental and to put that all in place is going to cost billions.

 

Also just curious, with elections coming up in other countries where parties may gain power that also want out of the EU, what if there is no EU left, by the time your application is decided, there may not be an EU.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Jetpilot

[Sargara]

Hmm 5 pages in already so I'm late to the party but has anybody mentioned North Sea oil yet? Whats the SNP's financial plan this time around?

Edited April 6, 2017 by Sargara

[coldel]

I think the danger of being so energy reliant is when energy prices fluctuate, I think about a year post referendum 'Scottish Oil' had dropped a significant amount in price. Yes financial markets fell to pieces in 2008 but they are certainly less liable to fluctuations that energy is. And as above, Scotland must pay its fair share of debt. Other things like Trident will be relocated as NS hates that also I would guess (happy to be proven wrong) - then who owns what in terms of defence? We divvying up the armed forces based on population size? Separation is huge, so much is co-owned, I see NS rushing to get the vote in but not rushing to provide a valid exit strategy should the vote go in her favour. Or is it another case of getting her name in lights then shirking the responsibility of implementation?

[Ekona]

Energy is too volatile to base any economy on, as some of the Arab nations are starting to find out. Scotland cannot survive on the current rate of oil & gas, so what if it dropped even further? Where does the funding to run the country come from? Many of the whisky distilleries are foreign owned or invested, so the money from thar doesn't really stay in the country as it is.

 

England would certainly be better off if we were on our own as we prop up the other nations massively in terms of finances. However, there are times where the expertise and space of Scotland are crucial (Faslane) or the upcoming cities of Wales which still offer room for expansion, and I rather like that we're all here for each other. That kind of co-operation is something I'm sad that we'll be losing when we Brexit, as I'd rather see a world where we live as humans rather than divide up even further based on nothing more than geography.

 

 

Even if you assume that energy prices double in the next year, what happens when the reserves are gone? In 100 years time, what does Scotland do when they relied so massively on that income? I can't see Scotland building a huge tech base to rival Silicon Valley or cheap manufacturing to rival China or domination of finances like London. Leaving the union is just too big to be left to energy values alone. If NS cannot provide a credible financial plan then I don't see it as a risk ever worth taking. Maybe she will come up with plans for the new Scottish currency, and how to fund the basics of a country like JP says, but right now she's a mile away from that.

[Angrybiker]

With regards to England propping up the other nations it's simply not true. For 35 years upto and including 2016 Scotland was a net contributor to the UK treasury. And that's per the UK governments own figures. Hell, the 'McCrone report' which was commissioned by Westminster to investigate how an Independent Scotland would fare given the recent Oil find in the North sea (1974) concluded that Scotland would have "a chronic surplus to quite an embarrassing degree and it's currency would become the hardest in Europe". This document was then branded 'Secret' to avoid fueling Independence sentiment. As far as what percentage of UK debt Scotland would take on, I'd imagine that would depend on what percentage of UK assets we received.

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

 

[coldel]

Have a read through the original independence thread this was covered. Interestingly the 'take' compared to the 'give' has dropped since the referendum for Scotland, in that England produces more than Scotland per person and takes less, I read that somewhere as the impending row between Sturgeon and May was brewing.

[Angrybiker]

It may well have dropped but 35 years in a row should go some way to dispelling the "subsidy junkie" myth perpetrated by thre UK media. Re stuff already being covered. We're discussing Scottish independence so there's bound to be some overlap.

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

 

[Jetpilot]

You paint a pretty picture, but I dont think its reality, scotland will be liable for some of the nations debt, there is no way you will get any % of britains assets as I doubt britain will get any of scotlands, fairs fair and all that. I personally think the cost of your eu membership, set up of infrastructure will bankrupt scotland before it even starts.

 

But thank you for a reasoned debate

[coldel]

I dont think there is that myth, as you say the numbers are there, but also the numbers that show that Scotland would have fell into serious economic crisis with an energy economy over the last couple of years, there needs a proper plan, you cannot base a countries long term future on fossil fuels.

 

RE the thread, we had a scottish independence thread.

[Sargara]

With regards to England propping up the other nations it's simply not true. For 35 years upto and including 2016 Scotland was a net contributor to the UK treasury. And that's per the UK governments own figures. Hell, the 'McCrone report' which was commissioned by Westminster to investigate how an Independent Scotland would fare given the recent Oil find in the North sea (1974) concluded that Scotland would have "a chronic surplus to quite an embarrassing degree and it's currency would become the hardest in Europe". This document was then branded 'Secret' to avoid fueling Independence sentiment. As far as what percentage of UK debt Scotland would take on, I'd imagine that would depend on what percentage of UK assets we received.

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

Back in 1974 when Oil was predicted to run out by the year 2000 you mean? Yes i guess that would have made North Sea oil a gold mine in times of predicted shortage but times have changed massively since then!

[StevoD]

If we Scotland leave do all member from Scotland get banned 😂