Scottish Referendum

[Jetpilot]

So the Scottish government have voted to request another referendum, obviously TM can refuse and probably will but whats folks thoughts?

[Stutopia]

When the inevitable refusal happens, I don't know why they don't just ignore TM and do one anyway. What's she gonna do? Invade?

[coldel]

Theresa Maybe will most likely refuse because they are asking for it to run during the closing stages of the 2 year window for brexit, the government is barely equipped to negotiate the EU exit let alone fight to keep the union together (hence the reason for Sturgeons request for it then) - if she does refuse, they can still have one at significant cost to the country, but it's not legally binding. As far as I know.

[Ekona]

The trouble I have this time round is that Sturgeon's whose argument revolves around the fact that Scotland voted to stay in the EU (let's not split semantics, the split was pretty clear). She wants to take Scotland out of the UK so they can stay within the EU, or specifically the single market. However, it's a plan that falls over for the exact same reasons as last time, along with some new ones:

 

- If Scotland leaves the U.K., it leaves the EU. End of. They will have to apply to join the EU, which means taking the Euro and sorting out the black hole in their finances.

- If they vote leave before Brexit (possible, on Sturgeon's timetable) it leaves only 6 months max to sort out the legal breaking from the UK. That is far, far too short a time period to achieve that, so Scotland will simply Brexit with the rest of us.

 

Plus she still has no answer for what currency an indie Scotland will use, where the money to run Scotland is coming from, why you'd rather join the EU than stay with the countries that you do the vast majority of your trade with etc. It's the same non-answered questions as before. She's had three years and got no further in formulating a plan, all the time watching the infrastructure in Scotland fall further and further behind.

 

 

Let's assume they vote to leave in time, and sort out the documentation, and manage to do a deal with the EU where they keep single market access (which means unlimited immigration, if that's even a concern at all). Or even a deal to join the EU proper. Regardless, Spain will always vote no due to Catalonia wanting independence which means it's dead in the water. I find myself this time not being too fussed if Scotland votes to leave or not, but I do find myself hoping that it's for the right reasons and not a pie in the sky dream like Bexit was. Make your leaders give you accurate answers, not Evil Tory Pig-Dog rhetoric.

[shaunRS]

Voted no last time and will vote no again if this gos ahead. I know a good amount of people that voted yes last time but will vote no this time round. 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

[TT350]

Will Irn Bru cost more though?

 

This is the real question.

[Richf]

I'm English I don't really care, my voice doesnt matter and neither does my opinion

[Jetpilot]

I'm English I don't really care, my voice doesnt matter and neither does my opinion

 

Valid point and i am the same as you with regards to whether they stay or go, i was just curious to peoples reactions of whether Scotland should be having another referendum at this time or in the very near future, not yet knowing the outcome of Brexit (i.e deal we secure) basically is it right?

Edited March 29, 2017 by Jetpilot

[coldel]

Just because you cannot vote, doesn't mean you cannot influence those that can with your opinion.

[Ekona]

The trouble is that it's all a political game of willy-waving. Sturgeon wants independence at any cost, and will spin and spin to get there. I'm not saying that Scotland on it's own couldn't be more successful, but I don't think it's better placed to go it alone on the world stage than if it remains part of the UK.

 

If your ideology is to have Scotland stand by itself, then that's fine. If you're prepared to accept any cost for that, again no arguments from me. The trouble for me is that the SNP have yet to present a clear case for independence that covers off all the bases, which leaves people voting blindly in the dark. That's not an acceptable place to be starting from with something this important. Same with Brexit really, no-one was given anywhere near enough facts on either side, hence the clusterf*ck of arguments and unknowns we have now.

 

 

If I were Scottish and were keen on independence, there's two very clear questions I'd want answered before voting Yes:

- Which currency will we be using, and what will it be tied to?

- How exactly will we go about forming a relationship (either re-joining or a separate agreement) with the EU?

 

Those questions define EVERYTHING. The first is obviously mission-critical for the day-to-day working of the country, and the latter is the sole reason that Sturgeon is saying she has a mandate for IndyRef2 (she doesn't btw, as the SNP don't even have a majority in Holyrood and instead are propped up by the yes-men of the Greens).

[Jetpilot]

I really cant abide by the word "independence" being thrown around in all this, they are not going to be independent if they manage to stay/get in the Eu and they will not be standing on their own, it should just be called, we dont want to be part of the UK any more.

 

I must admit i very much enjoyed Ruth Davidson telling Sturgeon to "sit down"

 

I am also curious to the Scottish members, why do you think you will be better off under Eu control rather than UK, i certainly dont think Sturgeon will able to make demands like she does on the UK government.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Jetpilot

[Ebized]

The trouble is that it's all a political game of willy-waving.

 

The mind boggles at TM and NS doing that........and to who

 

 

So the Scots want a divorce from English and believe they can get a new partner(s) with Europe.

 

Anyone like me wondering just how long the European Union will last given the policitcal unrest that is festering there and the Scots will be knocking on the door for a re-marriage?

 

 

Trouble is; the crystal ball gazing that is going on about the outcome in 2+ years is meaningless, Cameron having made one of the biggest political mistakes with his YES/NO question decided on by most waving fingers in the air as to what is best for the UK.......

[Jetpilot]

I believe the EU will continue but nothing like it is now, perhaps with Germany heading it up with a few select countries, a lot of the smaller countries will fall off the map as they just wont be able to pay the admin fee.

[Stutopia]

NS should just get a big red Scleave (does Scleave work?) bus and pop a catchy lie on the side, then bang on about making Scotland great again.

 

 

 

 

 

Recent elections and referendums suggest Scottish voters see straight through that kind of circus s***e.

[docwra]

NS should just get a big red Scleave (does Scleave work?)

 

Scoxit, surely ?

 

Im already getting the same sense of inevitability as we had with Brexit ......... just as there were very clear counter arguments against leaving the EU (£350m was a lie, we will never have complete border control and immigration will continue), Sturgeons main drum here is that "the Scottish people want to remain part of the EU" - except they cant, this was made clear in the last referendum.

 

The worrying bit is that as with Brexit no-one seems to be pointing this out, despite it probably being the single biggest factor affecting the decision.

Ive heard that Dave Cameron didnt point out the bleeding obvious in his referendum as he wanted the result as close as possible for better negotiating position with Europe, I cant fathom why the Scots in favour of staying in UK arent saying anything though.

[Richf]

Just because you cannot vote, doesn't mean you cannot influence those that can with your opinion.

 

You really think that as an Englishman you can influence a Scot who wants independence to vote otherwise ?? Good luck with that

[coldel]

I have in the past, have evidence of that in that they both changed their vote. If you sit in silence you cannot blame any outcome of something that you had an opinion on but chose not to voice.

[TT350]

No one's answered my serious and time sensitive question..

[coldel]

Are you planning on trading in Irn Bru?

[TT350]

Are you planning on trading in Irn Bru?

 

It's all that quenches my thirst. It's a quid right now for 2L. What if there's blockades at the depot.

 

Fail to prepare prepare to fail.

[coldel]

Its horrific stuff! Water is usually a good substitute for thirst quenching?

[TT350]

I have the orange thirst the noooo.

[Aashenfox]

I cannot blame the people for wanting one, if they want one, however, I would advise that now is simply not the ideal time for that.

[coldel]

Sturgeon wants it now because it increases her chances of winning i.e. capability to roll out the PR campaign vs the government embroiled in trying to work through brexit

It seems hit and miss if the Scottish people want it now - clearly those that would vote leave will want it now, those who don't, won't

If the UK negotiates a great deal, then the likelihood is that voting leave UK because of the main argument of leaving the EU lessens Sturgeons chances of winning considerably

 

Sturgeon has a somewhat right wing tunnel vision view on what she wants for Scotland - this is an opportunity

[Irn Bru]

I'll chuck in my tuppence worth. For 32 years I've voted snp and been a strong advocate of Scotland being independent. Back in the days before Holyrood came about the snp spoke my kind of politics and were very sceptical of the EU since its inception. Over the years I've watch closely the snp turn into another tory party, but I still voted for them as I have never had time for tory or labour as a political party. I spent a number of years working in both the Westminster Parliament and the Scottish Parliament since before its official start day back in 1999.

I voted yes in the 2014 indy ref and was gutted we didn't get back then. Fast forward 2 years and NS taking over from AS and the party is a f#cking joke. They have strayed way too far off to the left for my liking and NS' s love for the EU turns my stomach. I have always disagreed with the EU and it's format and even more so with its modern day policies. IMHO the lot of the EU mp's ministers, commissioners and every thing else they call themselves are nothing but robbing trough grazing leaches. One of the main reasons I voted yes in both the referendums was to get shot of the EU. When the scottish indy ref battles were going on, sturgeon conveniently side stepped the fact she was so pro eu and hate her for that.

In my immediate family of in laws, parents and children, a total of ten adults, with an English son in law and English daughter in law, every single one of us voted out of eu, whilst only half of us voted yes for the Scottish indy ref. I accept the majority vote in the Scottish ref and we stay as the UK, it's been voted for and decided, end of for me. IF the indy 2 comes to the fore, then I think NS is in for a shock, she is turning her loyal supporters off her party and is seen by many life long snp voters like me as a dictator.The problem in scottish politics is we have always been labour voters in the majority, but the labour party under Blair f#cked that right up by becoming the red tories, hence why the snp have gained traction and momentum rapidly in scotlands political sphere. When indy 2 comes round, then it will be a big fat NAW fi me.

My only issue with UK politics is, for the foreseeable future the tories will rule supreme because labour are completely unelectable with their current leader and shadow cabinet and are just as bad as a so called opposition party. However, I do have to say, strangely for me, I actually trust TM to do us good on Brexit.

If the way can't be found for all the UK parliments and assembly's to come to work together with every country getting a fair say in how brexit rolls out then I can see the entire UK breaking up into 4 separate nations within the next 10 years .

On a final note, I've watched many posts and responses on the political pages of Facebook, with many scots being very worked up about the union and how It came about, but the problem is far too many are Ignorant of how the union came about over 300 years ago, and blame the English for all that's wrong in Scotland. I actually take great pleasure in telling them the history and story of how the union came about. Five words Scottish nobles and Panama canal.