gangzoom Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 All debate about EVs aside all I can say am loving the X . Our next car purchase will either be an iPace or Model 3. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy78 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 All debate about EVs aside all I can say am loving the X . And that is all that matters! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Aye no argument about the cost of running it - cost of entry is highly prohibitive though which is why Norway Denmark etc throw huge amounts of the countries budget at overcoming that. As GZ said he spent £250 on electricity on the leaf in 18 months or something which is great. I think the arguments are clearly there, the real world though sits outside a theoretical debate on the pros and cons. The UK is still selling 2m new vehicles a year of which 98.5% are ICE, its likely that many of these cars will still be on the road in 5-10 years time. EV growth in the UK has gone from a market share of something like 0.5% three years ago to 1.5% now - yes it will grow, but to be a majority in say 15 years time they need to be selling at 50% market share now. Rich I get what you are saying, I know EV will become massive, but the time scales are unrealistic unless something big happens. The UK is not going to give the incentives that Scandinavian countries do, there are no companies putting their hands up to put in the infrastructure at scale to get EVs to huge proportions right now (the mobile phone example is irellevant as cost of entry is nothing like the cost of entry for EV cars, phones were made free in some cases, cars will never be). If I were going to stick money on it, EVs to overtake ICE in market share (without any large scale event i.e. oil, government turning hugely green like Scandinavia etc) - 2050? So its trebled in 3 years over here ? You seem to think there is no infrastructure but they are growing rapidly with already more charging points than there are filling stations many companies have a financial model and are investing heavily ( yet most people charge at home) I'm talking about 30 years not 10 , but as i said twice you don't need incentives, they will tax the worst polluters off the road and give benefits to low polluters like they have in recent years ie congestion charge, tax breaks for company cars, parking permits, use of fast/bus lanes, road fund licence and fuel duty There are many ways to change behavior incentives are a carrot , taxes are a stick they will use both. Phones are a good analogy as once a technology becomes more widespread it becomes cheaper, they were never free they were sold as a part of a contract , the cost was hidden , bit like a car lease . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillisRR Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Interesting!! I guess so much of the weight is low down so although it is 2.5 tonne it still has a low centre of gravity. Would love to have a go of one but doubt they would let me. Nice that they are doing a very affordable one (Model 3 is it?) but again I think they are all sold before production begins! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Aye no argument about the cost of running it - cost of entry is highly prohibitive though which is why Norway Denmark etc throw huge amounts of the countries budget at overcoming that. As GZ said he spent £250 on electricity on the leaf in 18 months or something which is great. I think the arguments are clearly there, the real world though sits outside a theoretical debate on the pros and cons. The UK is still selling 2m new vehicles a year of which 98.5% are ICE, its likely that many of these cars will still be on the road in 5-10 years time. EV growth in the UK has gone from a market share of something like 0.5% three years ago to 1.5% now - yes it will grow, but to be a majority in say 15 years time they need to be selling at 50% market share now. Rich I get what you are saying, I know EV will become massive, but the time scales are unrealistic unless something big happens. The UK is not going to give the incentives that Scandinavian countries do, there are no companies putting their hands up to put in the infrastructure at scale to get EVs to huge proportions right now (the mobile phone example is irellevant as cost of entry is nothing like the cost of entry for EV cars, phones were made free in some cases, cars will never be). If I were going to stick money on it, EVs to overtake ICE in market share (without any large scale event i.e. oil, government turning hugely green like Scandinavia etc) - 2050? So its trebled in 3 years over here ? You seem to think there is no infrastructure but they are growing rapidly with already more charging points than there are filling stations many companies have a financial model and are investing heavily ( yet most people charge at home) I'm talking about 30 years not 10 , but as i said twice you don't need incentives, they will tax the worst polluters off the road and give benefits to low polluters like they have in recent years ie congestion charge, tax breaks for company cars, parking permits, use of fast/bus lanes, road fund licence and fuel duty There are many ways to change behavior incentives are a carrot , taxes are a stick they will use both. Phones are a good analogy as once a technology becomes more widespread it becomes cheaper, they were never free they were sold as a part of a contract , the cost was hidden , bit like a car lease . Underlining stuff doesn't help please don't be so pedantic. You cannot tax all ICE cars off the road, because then who pays to keep the road network going? EV cars will have to pay something. All cars paid VED years ago, before government called it a pollution tax. Ultimately the same amount of money has to come from drivers thats economics, if the majority on the road are EV cars, then they will pay as much as ICE will have to - it will be called congestion tax based on miles or similar. Yes EV have trebled in three years, its far too early to decide if that rate of growth will continue without any serious government support etc. So far those like GZ have gone for it, he is typical of an innovation investor in tech, but many people aren't. So its moved up 1% in terms of new car sales in two years. Even Denmark has said already sales have slowed and they only have around 5% market share of EV. Phones are not a good example, because the cost is so much different. I could give a smartphone a punt because the cost is not really a barrier, the infrastructure was already there for non-smartphones and I could use the same network. Otherwise you could argue how Google Glass is an example of how EV will fail, but of course thats not a reliable comparison either. I'm kind of dropping out of this now, have just made my point, technology is fast, take up isn't always the same speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Anyhow more serious note about to try get home I work near Westminster ... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeezeebaba Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) One thing is for sure here, once the oil,gas and coal run out owning a car will become very expensive indeed. Mass transit systems are the future. Hopefully I will be six feet under by then. The problem for me with all of this is purely a selfish one. I'm a petrol head it's my hobby, the EV represents the death of my hobby but I understand the need to explore alternatives however anodyne and down right boring they are. Thankfully I've got at least 30 more years of ICE pleasure. The hybrid will be the crossover with range extenders. Full EV vehicles en mass highly unlikely in the near future. Edited March 22, 2017 by Zeezeebaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) ^^ People still ride horses for fun so equally people will always have combustion cars for fun. Interestingly for me the drive to look at EVs was also a selfish one, there was no way my wife would OK me getting another 25mpg petrol car, where as with the Tesla she contributed to half the cost of purchase based on its 'green' credentials no matter how real/unreal that is . Edited March 22, 2017 by gangzoom 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Don't go too fast, I can't see how you get someone out the back when it's on its roof Did they not go for explosive bolts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Anyhow more serious note about to try get home I work near Westminster ... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Oh dear! Good luck CD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 One thing an ICE car gives you is the ability to drive anywhere, anytime. If I wanted to drive from here to China tomorrow I could in an ICE. No chance in an EV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G1en Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 On a sidenote. Whatever happened to hydrogen fuel cell cars they were trialling in California i think. Was on a topgear episode several years back. They were billed as the future. Only emission being water and powered by the most abundant element on the planet. I know they said the infrastructure would cost billions. Has money spoken or was there some other issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 On a sidenote. Whatever happened to hydrogen fuel cell cars they were trialling in California i think. Was on a topgear episode several years back. They were billed as the future. Only emission being water and powered by the most abundant element on the planet. I know they said the infrastructure would cost billions. Has money spoken or was there some other issue? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX_Clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G1en Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 So basically things are exactly the same now as 9 years ago when the clarity was released? You can lease one in California because that is the only place that has hydrogen filling stations. So back to the point. Fuel cell cars are cheaper than EVs. Have very similar power, range and MPG as petrol/deisel cars and zero emissions. So is the main thing holding them back the cost of infrastructure and the oil companies and governments not willing to fund it or is there other issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 There are a few other HFC cars leased in other parts of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 So basically things are exactly the same now as 9 years ago when the clarity was released? You can lease one in California because that is the only place that has hydrogen filling stations. So back to the point. Fuel cell cars are cheaper than EVs. Have very similar power, range and MPG as petrol/deisel cars and zero emissions. So is the main thing holding them back the cost of infrastructure and the oil companies and governments not willing to fund it or is there other issues? Fuel cell cars cost more than a Tesla, have less range, significantly slower, and heavier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G1en Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I guess the research and development over the last 5-10 years then has been aimed at EVs to a point where they have overtaken the "stats" of fuel cell cars rendering them kind of an also ran. Bit like VHS and Betamax, Blue-ray and HD-DVD etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 The single most abhorrent EV, I've ever seen. As has been said, get beyond Buck Rogers and make them look 'normal', then the real main stream will take off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Its called understanding their market , they will largely be bought by soccer moms , getting a child/children into child seats is going to be made significantly easier with these doors I do 95% of nursery drop offs and enjoy the extra time I get to spend with my daughter, now that the initial excitement of a new car has bedded in and things become more routine, the rear doors are fast becoming one of the best features of the car. At nursery drop off I stop the car, tell the rear door to open via the central control panel, by the time I have got out of the drivers seat and around to the child seat I'm greeted by an enormous open space in which to get my daughter out without having to worry about low roof lines, awaked door openings, and it works well as an umbrella!! The doors than close at a touch of a button. Honestly I don't know how I've managed all this before in a car with normal doors Edited March 23, 2017 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I was going to say, how did we all manage how comes my mum isn't in a wheel chair after all those years getting us out of the back of a Ford Cortina. Its easier for sure as you dont have to bend down quite so far, but seriously unless you have some medical condition most adults are capable of getting a child out the back of a four door hatch back. At 39 I was getting my young son out the back of an R33 and it was fine. 1st world problems eh... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) I was going to say, how did we all manage how comes my mum isn't in a wheel chair after all those years getting us out of the back of a Ford Cortina. Its easier for sure as you dont have to bend down quite so far, but seriously unless you have some medical condition most adults are capable of getting a child out the back of a four door hatch back. At 39 I was getting my young son out the back of an R33 and it was fine. 1st world problems eh... My parents didn't even have a fridge in the house till I was about 4/5, let alone a car to worry about a car seat!! Kids growing up these days (my daughter included) don't know how privileged/spoilt they all are. Edited March 23, 2017 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I remember my dad wiring up a portable black and white TV in the back of our VW Beetle to keep me and my brother amused - he was well ahead of the curve on in car entertainment 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 One thing an ICE car gives you is the ability to drive anywhere, anytime. If I wanted to drive from here to China tomorrow I could in an ICE. No chance in an EV. Real life experience of this - every other car in San Francisco/North California is a Tesla but you dont see any driving between there and LA, or LA and Vegas (where there are none at all) .......... I imagine this is because the first journey is 380 miles and the second is 270 miles and if you run out of leccy youll be stuck in a 120 degree desert - we were getting a bit worried in an ICE with a 70 litre tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeezeebaba Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I know a few multi storey car parks round my way where you couldn't open those doors at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) One thing an ICE car gives you is the ability to drive anywhere, anytime. If I wanted to drive from here to China tomorrow I could in an ICE. No chance in an EV. Real life experience of this - every other car in San Francisco/North California is a Tesla but you dont see any driving between there and LA, or LA and Vegas (where there are none at all) .......... I imagine this is because the first journey is 380 miles and the second is 270 miles and if you run out of leccy youll be stuck in a 120 degree desert - we were getting a bit worried in an ICE with a 70 litre tank Sadly you've picked the worst possible example. California has the highest concentrations of Tesla superchargers in the world. Doing long distance trips in California in a Tesla is so easy (and free in terms of fuel costs) people have even setup businesses around the idea. https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2017/feb/19/tesla-los-angeles-las-vegas-teslaloop-eco-road-trip-california Edited March 23, 2017 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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