Pretty true this is. Well worth a read.

[Bandit]

For all you track day boys this is well worth a read and a comment.

 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a32702/why-youll-never-learn-to-be-fast-until-you-get-rid-of-your-fast-car/

 

 

[Kev T]

A lot of sense in that short article, good find.

[Ekona]

That text reminds me exactly why I don't enjoy reading most car stuff written by Yanks. It's a needlessly aggressive tone he picks right from the start, and it's off putting to read as it automatically gets people's backs up.

 

Not sure what his point it, tbh. Slow cars are easier to learn in? Well duh. Slow cars are easier to handle at the limit? Obviously. Fast cars are really good fun to drive fast? Most of the time...

 

 

Personally I had more fun at Bedford in my MX5 with a whopping 130bhp than I did in a Cayman R on the same day. I'd built my speed up over the years too by starting out in slower cars before progressing, but the biggest amount of progression I ever made was when I owned the VXR220. Not because of the speed of the thing, either incredibly rapid compared to an MX5 or incredibly slow compared to a 458, but because it gave tremendous amounts of feedback. That's the biggest key to driving cars fast, is having a car that tells you what it's doing and then (and more importantly) being able to interpret that information into inputs.

 

I don't disagree that it's better to learn in slow cars first, but only because stuff happens slower. If the choice was between a Clio 172 or a TTRS, you'd be better off in the Clio. If the choice was between the same Clio and a Caterham 420R, the Caterham would teach you far more IMHO.

 

 

 

Just my thoughts any way. No right or wrong here, folks

[Stutopia]

If you ignore the first two paragraphs of letting you know he's, like such a, well, totally amazing, hella cool bro, with a big (probably the biggest) Johnson EVER, whaaaaat!!!! It's a good read.

 

Interesting bit about karts, throwing them around is dead easy and great fun, but once you make that leap up of adding 900kg to a kart I find it all becomes just a bit more scary. Never done it in a car I don't mind stuffing though, perhaps that's the key.

[brillomaster]

i hate karting, i'm crap at it. I thought I might be good having a lot of experience of trackdays, but spending 99% of the course on full throttle with just the very odd sharp dab of the brake does nothing for me - i'd much rather be dealing with gearchanges, extended braking zones, balancing throttle through corners, all that good stuff.

 

And also, I love driving my beemers for this very reason... now that I've done a few trackdays (well, about 30 now) I feel I have a really good knowledge of how to extract (in my opinion) the maximum from the car, and its still really satisfying to drive it fast around a track. plus also, the limits in a beemer are so transparent you can hold it right on the edge of understeer or oversteer, or alternatively you can chuck it into a corner on the brakes and get the back out dead easy.

 

that said, if anyone is reading this and feeling generous, i'd really like a drive in something with a bit more power now! i'd love a go in a track prepped M3 with twice the power that I have now and see how well my slow speed skills translate to an actually fast car, or a car that's actually set up to be sporty from the start, rather than a soft family saloon with a moderately large engine in.

Edited February 23, 2017 by brillomaster

[Ekona]

You need to go drive a fast Caterham, I suspect you'd absolutely adore the broadside-ability of the thing

[Davewilkins]

I learnt in a stripped out R32 GTR with 500 bhp. Did sprinting with a national B non-race licence, did plenty of tuition and then did a season in time attack trying to keep up with faster cars. Being timed really made me learn quick, but agree a slower car would have been better to learn in.

[Ekona]

Better, or easier?

[Davewilkins]

Both. A slower car would have been better. Any mistakes are big ones as it was pretty fast. Craner curves at donington in 4th gear was pretty fast when the back end was sliding and needed more gas for the 4wd to help.

I had the skyline as a road car to start with as I guess most Z owners do. You pick a car and then track it rather than pick your car for track use most of the time.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Davewilkins

[docwra]

Meh, we've been saying this in drifting for years, on any given drift day its obvious which guys that started with stock MX5's on the street and who bought a 400hp comp spec car and never actually learnt how to pedal.

 

My own track career started with a ratty S12 Silvia on cut springs that I picked up for £100 - I learnt so much in that car that when I moved onto bigger and better things I was straight in the zone. Conversely, I almost rear ended a Ferrari 458 in my 350Z at Spa a while back .......... at the end of the Kemmel Straight, how in gods name does that work?

 

Me and a few mates also managed to get an Ariel Atom black flagged at Snetterton for not letting us past for over a lap ........ our most powerful car was a standard MR2 with 138hp. Id hang up my race gloves if I was the atom driver TBH

 

Fast driving for me is all about confidence in yours and the cars abilities and you only find this out when youre on the limit; youre unlikely to be able to get to the limit if your first track car is a GT3.

Most of the ex drifters I know are very, very fast on track in whatever they are driving and I put this down to the fact that they are comfortable right on the ragged edge ......... mainly because they have been past it enough times to know that they can bring the situation back.

I still remember clearly the first time my Z went sideways unexpectedly and I automatically put more throttle on and steered into it as that was the day I considered myself to be a decent driver ....... but it took the best part of 5 years regular drifting to get there.

[davey_83]

i hate karting, i'm crap at it. I thought I might be good having a lot of experience of trackdays, but spending 99% of the course on full throttle with just the very odd sharp dab of the brake does nothing for me - i'd much rather be dealing with gearchanges, extended braking zones, balancing throttle through corners, all that good stuff.

 

And also, I love driving my beemers for this very reason... now that I've done a few trackdays (well, about 30 now) I feel I have a really good knowledge of how to extract (in my opinion) the maximum from the car, and its still really satisfying to drive it fast around a track. plus also, the limits in a beemer are so transparent you can hold it right on the edge of understeer or oversteer, or alternatively you can chuck it into a corner on the brakes and get the back out dead easy.

 

that said, if anyone is reading this and feeling generous, i'd really like a drive in something with a bit more power now! i'd love a go in a track prepped M3 with twice the power that I have now and see how well my slow speed skills translate to an actually fast car, or a car that's actually set up to be sporty from the start, rather than a soft family saloon with a moderately large engine in.

 

Have a go on DMax Karts in Tamworth, major throttle & brake control needed. Ive done a fair bit of karting and never have i felt a kart be so loose on the back end until the tyres warmed up!! Every corner you could slide from using too much throttle.

[Davewilkins]

that said, if anyone is reading this and feeling generous, i'd really like a drive in something with a bit more power now! i'd love a go in a track prepped M3 with twice the power that I have now and see how well my slow speed skills translate to an actually fast car, or a car that's actually set up to be sporty from the start, rather than a soft family saloon with a moderately large engine in.

 

I took out the driver of an M3 and then he took me out at Cadwell. Standard engine but stripped out, running on slicks and he was an awesome driver. Unbelievable. Can't use words to describe how much better it was than my 2.8 R33 GTR with 550lb ft of torque. such a well balanced car.

[NeilMH]

You need to go drive a fast Caterham, I suspect you'd absolutely adore the broadside-ability of the thing

 

I'd love everyone to have a go in a Caterham. You feel so connected to everything that's happening - it's as if you are personally integrated with the car's components. They are incredibly forgiving and adjustable. It's not about absolute power or speed as such (they don't have the aerodynamics) - it's all about feel. The first time I went out on to the Indy circuit at Brands many years ago it all felt so right. Sadly I don't have one anymore - currently at the other extreme with a Toyota Camry

[Keyser]

What the guy that wrote this and you lot are missing here is he is talking about drivers like me, let me explain, I go to track in my slightly modified car and get passed by everything from Mini's to supercars and I can't use the “well it's a £150k supercar of course I was taking it easy†excuse, I can't rely on my years of carting or track experience as growing up on a farm the fastest thing I drove was a tractor

 

So I go out and I buy a faster car or modified the current cars engine to make it go faster, now the fact that I still can't judge correct entry speed and have less mid corner control than a new born deer on ice doesn’t matter as I can make so much distance on you down the straights you are never that close that it matters if I corner slow, I may even pass a few MX-5's on a long enough straight and I get to go home having reassured myself I am in fact a driving god

 

What this is referring to is the track day drivers that can actually drive so even if I do get ahead in the straights you catch me in the braking zone and end up pushing me out of the corner - this makes me look bad and can even result in blue (or black as above) flags being waved at me - imagine what that does to my ego!!! This of course applies all the way down the speed field as even I get to sit behind cars thinking is he going to let me passed or what!!??!!

 

 

 

What I'm saying is a lot of the field of drivers/cars that goes to track days is probably there to have fun, a lot of people don't have the time or money to have a car for track and for road and the only time they get to open the loud pedal in a nice v10 BMW or whatever (without risking a ticket) is on track, I think it's a bit harsh to say everyone that goes on track has to be a really good driver or must improve in the next 3 sessions - it's an open to anyone event so a bit more tolerance towards other users, I can only remember 2 track days where the organisation was so bad that they didn’t have a word with anyone that was a bit slower and point out to them what they needed to do to allow faster drivers to enjoy the day as well.

One of those was so bad it was almost funny Jetpilot was there and he did about 4 laps in a procession of 15+ cars at less than A road pace before he gave up and came in – not a happy bunny

 

Any way each to their own live and let live (and don’t pass me on track )

Edited February 24, 2017 by Keyser

[Ebized]

You didn't seem slow to me Chris through the corners during my passenger laps........

 

 

 

.....but then I did have my eyes closed

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Only kidding mate as I hope that was not my first and last ride with you )

[docwra]

a bit more tolerance towards other users

 

But this is the problem, Johnny Slowpants has gone out and bought his GT3RS and thinks hes the man, so when he sees anything less than another Porsche in his RVM he cant accept its actually lapping faster than he is, after all hes leaving it for dead down the straights isnt he?

 

I remember more than one occasion when Ive been chasing a mate in a Megane or a Clio, weve caught up some kind of exotica and we have actually had to swap positions as the Porsche (it is usually Porsche drivers) will let a wide 350Z or a 1M lookalike through, but not a Renault. If we are prepared to troll round an entire lap so as not to break the overtaking rules, why cant they pull to the side and lift off for 2 seconds?

[Ekona]

Like my video of me in the MR2 and the 360CS at Anglesey a few years back.

 

Trouble is there's rudeness on both sides: Those in 'slow' cars who are good drivers who will bully the less confident out of the way, and those in 'fast' cars who will leave you for dead on the straights then park on the apex in a corner.

 

I've not really found any particular marque worse for it than others, although the one that does spring to mind was an R35 and a Evo8 a few years back that decided to treat the day as a race and thought nothing of coming up your inside just as you were about to turn in. Clearly capable drivers in capable machines, but utter bellends. I was half tempted to turn in regardless, as I'm pretty sure my MX5 was worth less than their JDM uber-cars

[NeilMH]

Like my video of me in the MR2 and the 360CS at Anglesey a few years back.

 

Trouble is there's rudeness on both sides: Those in 'slow' cars who are good drivers who will bully the less confident out of the way, and those in 'fast' cars who will leave you for dead on the straights then park on the apex in a corner.

 

I've not really found any particular marque worse for it than others, although the one that does spring to mind was an R35 and a Evo8 a few years back that decided to treat the day as a race and thought nothing of coming up your inside just as you were about to turn in. Clearly capable drivers in capable machines, but utter bellends. I was half tempted to turn in regardless, as I'm pretty sure my MX5 was worth less than their JDM uber-cars

 

The last thing you want is someone coming up your inside.

[Ekona]

I'm so glad someone picked up on that: I set 'em up, I'll let someone else knock 'em down!

[Keyser]

You didn't seem slow to me Chris through the corners during my passenger laps........

 

 

 

.....but then I did have my eyes closed

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Only kidding mate as I hope that was not my first and last ride with you )

 

 

 

 

 

It's OK mate - I had my eyes shut as well

 

(I may have used some poetic licence in my story as we all know I am a driving god cause I passed 2 MX-5's on one straight once)

 

You will have to come along when we get the new engine fitted and have another PAX lap see if you like the improvements

 

 

 

 

a bit more tolerance towards other users

 

But this is the problem, Johnny Slowpants has gone out and bought his GT3RS and thinks hes the man, so when he sees anything less than another Porsche in his RVM he cant accept its actually lapping faster than he is, after all hes leaving it for dead down the straights isnt he?

 

I remember more than one occasion when Ive been chasing a mate in a Megane or a Clio, weve caught up some kind of exotica and we have actually had to swap positions as the Porsche (it is usually Porsche drivers) will let a wide 350Z or a 1M lookalike through, but not a Renault. If we are prepared to troll round an entire lap so as not to break the overtaking rules, why cant they pull to the side and lift off for 2 seconds?

 

Mate, Dan and yourself both make a valid point, papa smurf was passenger with me at Bedford and we got stuck behind a 911 Turbo left us down every straight but we nearly ran into the back of him every corner, right bellend .......... So we all agree that there are some prize plonkers with no regard to anyone else spending the same amount of money to be there as someone else, however this does not give anyone the right to pick on someone because they are not as good behind the wheel or lack the confidence to go faster round a bend, it's up to them if they ask for advice about how to be faster then by all means tell them but that article basically says you bought a fast car you’re not that good you will never get better so you can no longer drive on track - What if they are happy not getting faster? Why do they have to get better? The guy that is currently designing the new Bugatti admits he always wanted to be a motorbike champ but realised early on that he could practice as much as he wanted he would never be the fastest so he tried to become the best engineer instead (he ran Porsche for a while and was head of 911 development some would say he did OK) didn't stop him going on track though.

We all get annoyed by idiots and that’s not just on the track they crop up all over the place, and as Dan said some of them are good drivers in fast cars my point is being slow on a track day for whatever reason does not mean they are idiots or they should be banned if they don’t get better – leave them alone!

Now if you want to have a discussion about not knowing track day rules, being and ar5e on track or coming up the inside of Dan when he wasn’t expecting it then we can but I don’t think our opinions will vary much.

 

PEACE!

 

 

 

EDIT: Dan may have a different opinion on the coming up the inside bit

Edited February 24, 2017 by Keyser

[RobPhoboS]

I thought the article was fine, I'm in no position anyway to have anything else other than the Z, so it's a moot point.

 

On the getting better thing - well technically, technically the more you do something the better you should be getting anyway, experience/confidence etc..

Although if you heard me play my guitars, you'd have never guess I started in 1994, you'd probably think I just started

 

I don't think there is a person in the world that goes on track thinking I don't want to improve my driving.

Why would they even bother turning up ?

 

The trouble seems to be, and usually for guys = EGO !

Always ego and not being humble enough no matter how big yer bank balance is !

 

We can all learn to be better, even if we're at the top of whatever you do - and if you don't think that you're a pillock (note that's NOT aimed anyone !).

 

It obviously doesn't mean that any one of us is going to become an F1 driver but can we be better than before.

(see The four stages of competence)

Most people are stuck in 1 (driving, work, sex whatever).

[Ekona]

Ooh that's an interesting link, ta.

[brillomaster]

oh yeah, can definitely see the progression with drifting...

 

driving a FWD peugeot - unconscious incompetence - didnt know i even wanted to oversteer.

got a RWD car, attempted a drift off a roundabout, spun it 180 degrees and mounted a kerb, realisation i'm pretty crap, and should improve - conscious incompetence

went to gymkhana days, practiced, could hold a slide if i really concentrate - conscious competence

rockingham trackday, pouring with rain, TCS off, gracefully powersliding at every corner while maintaining conversation with passenger - unconscious competence

 

then i ran out of talent and hit a wall... back to conscious incompetence...

[docwra]

LOL, drifting really is a great example for this though, when you realise you are doing it without even noticing its a pretty awesome feeling. Until you hit the wall of course

[Stutopia]

I tried a roudabout drift by accident and suffered unconscious incontinence.