Pondering about Coilovers (KW v3 etc)

[Miller350z]

Are the meister r gt1 the only coilovers they offer now for the 350z? I very nearly was gonna join a gb last year for zeta s coilovers I think they were called but decided to wait until this summer. Did that group buy end up going through, I know there was a bit of wait. I was only looking at spending around £700

 

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[Ekona]

I'm guessing because fast road is now in the vernacular, whereas tarmac rally would still sound specialised.

 

Why wouldn't a road car want a tarmac rally setup? To me, that would sound not a million miles away from what you'd want, hugely compliant over firm surfaces that are good to poor in quality, but with a certain amount of compromise in terms of people wanting to go faster.

[nimz]

 

So why not call it a tarmac rally setup? And I can absolutely promise you a road car DOESN'T want the same dynamics as a Tarmac rally car.

 

This is before owner profiling has entered the equation.

 

Stop confusing these people with your psuedo science.

 

I don't know what your problem is mate but the majority of posts I've seen from you are overly aggressive and self righteous, there's no need to attack people because you disagree with them.

[GappySmeg]

So why not call it a tarmac rally setup? And I can absolutely promise you a road car DOESN'T want the same dynamics as a Tarmac rally car.

 

This is before owner profiling has entered the equation.

 

Stop confusing these people with your psuedo science.

 

I don't know what your problem is mate but the majority of posts I've seen from you are overly aggressive and self righteous, there's no need to attack people because you disagree with them.

 

Yep... and still no apology for claiming Meister's post was plagiarised.

 

Are you on commission from KW or something?

[MeisterR]

So why not call it a tarmac rally setup? And I can absolutely promise you a road car DOESN'T want the same dynamics as a Tarmac rally car.

 

This is before owner profiling has entered the equation.

 

Stop confusing these people with your psuedo science.

 

Well, since my pseudo science is confusing, please enlighten us.

You promise us that a a road car DOESN'T want the same dynamics as a Tarmac rally car, can you tell me the dynamics a road car want as well as the damper design to achieve that vehicle dynamics.

 

If you can include what wheel frequency a road car should have, what critical damping level, cracking pressure, etc.

How to set up the wheel frequency bias so the front and rear suspension do not synchronise on a harmonic frequency.

I know there are quite a bit more, but just something basic will do just to enlighten us why a road car DOESN'T want the same dynamics as a tarmac rally car.

 

I am sure you have REAL science to explain how my pseudo science is confusing.

 

Note: The reason I use "Fast Road" car because it explain the type of road car it will be.

 

A road car to me could be a Fiat 500 all the way to a Mercedes S-Class.

And of course, those car would require a different dynamics as their main focus will be comfort.

 

A fast road car to me is more specific, it is either a "fast" road car, or road car that will be driven "fast".

That mean for those car, the dynamics will mainly be focused on traction, compliancy, weight transfer control, and steering response.

 

That is why I use "Fast Road" car as my target, because that is the type of cars MeisterR product mainly focus for.

 

Jerrick

[MeisterR]

Are the meister r gt1 the only coilovers they offer now for the 350z? I very nearly was gonna join a gb last year for zeta s coilovers I think they were called but decided to wait until this summer. Did that group buy end up going through, I know there was a bit of wait. I was only looking at spending around £700

 

We have the ZetaCRD which is the new generation of MeisterR coilovers.

 

The ZetaCRD supersede the Zeta-S by adding in a range of upgrade such as:

*Revised damping that provide better response and performance

*Thicker damper rod for increase structural strength

*New locking collar design that are currently under UK patent pending status

*Rubber insulator on springs coils to increase durability

...and a few other bits.

 

At the moment, the ZetaCRD is £725 and 350Z uk member do get 10% discount bringing it down to £652 delivered.

 

Springs rate remain the same at 10kg/mm front, 8kg/mm rear.

The rear springs remain the same "in board" springs OEM design.

 

Jerrick

[Olly350z]

 

So why not call it a tarmac rally setup? And I can absolutely promise you a road car DOESN'T want the same dynamics as a Tarmac rally car.

 

This is before owner profiling has entered the equation.

 

Stop confusing these people with your psuedo science.

 

I don't know what your problem is mate but the majority of posts I've seen from you are overly aggressive and self righteous, there's no need to attack people because you disagree with them.

 

Thankyou! Literally thought this this morning. This entire topic is littered with overly aggressive posts slamming Jerrick and his products.

 

 

[Snjur]

After reading this topic and few PM exchanged with Jerrick I have dedicated to give a try to Meister R Gt1's. Originally I set my mind on Tein Monoflex so Gt1's are little bit over budget and in price range of Kw 3.

Due to my job time when I'm at home I tend to spend quality behind the wheel. Car is twin turbo suspension has already upgrades in terms of toe arms front and rear, energy suspension bushings and so. I did tried my share of various coilovers on my rides as well others from Chinese all the way to Kw Clubsport. So how it look by the end February begging March it should Gt1's should be on the car and will writte a review. My test route is 420 km from capital to sea side. Mixture of everything fast section, curvy one's, over the mountain where the rod is quite bumpy due to temps in winter which cause tarmac to crack. And of course track day event on Grobnik race track

 

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Edited January 9, 2017 by Snjur

[Aashenfox]

What is a fast road set up? This is banded about on lots of forums and it is borderline cringeworthy. There is no such thing as a fast road setup.

 

But to answer your question the high speed damping and control of the KWv3 smashes the MeisterR. This is not just a benefit for roads, but track too as you can attack the curbs more aggressively without losing your wheel contact.

 

 

A fast road setup is what we in vehicle dynamics class as a "Tarmac Rally" setup.

 

So why not call it a tarmac rally setup? And I can absolutely promise you a road car DOESN'T want the same dynamics as a Tarmac rally car.

 

This is before owner profiling has entered the equation.

 

Stop confusing these people with your psuedo science.

It's you who is confusing everyone with your pedantic techno babble, accurate or not, it's you that's muddying the waters of what are already clearly defined terms in the car world, because they don't fit your vision of the perfect car setup, or allow you to pedantically pick apart other members whose comments you don't agree with or appreciate.

 

Everyone knows what a fast road setup is except you it seems. Yes, it is obvious why they call it that rather than a rally setup which WOULD be confusing. Both terms are equally accurate, but the layman will get a better impression from 'fast road' setup, as that's what he thinks he is, fast on the road. A slightly stiffer setup usually with a little less understeer is what everyone calls a fast road setup, however that is achieved.

 

Secondly, are you REALLY suggesting to people that drive their cars only on the road, that A. any set of coilovers is really worth the expense unles you are lowering a good amount (which you are doing for looks not handling and therefore matters not a jot which coilovers you choose) and B. that if one is going to that expense, that KW v3 is the minimum satisfactory spec? Rubbish. I had V3s on my 400hp e92 335xi, I now have HSD monopros on my Z and can't tell the difference. I drive quite well for an amateur and on slippery greek roads too, but I DO NOT test the limits of my setups, nor even close, I'm not THAT good, and neither are 99.9% of people on this forum.

 

Imagine if you ran a bakery...

 

You: "Hello, what can I do for you?"

Customer: "I'd like a chocolate cake please"

You: "a what?"

Customer: "A chocolate cake please"

You: "'a chocolate cake' covers such a wide range of possibilities and variables, I still don't know what you want"

Customer: "er, ok, well what have you got that fits the description of a chocolate cake?"

You: "I have this cake, with chocolate sponge, and chocolate icing"

Customer: "so, it's a chocolate cake then"

You: "well, yes and no. There are chocolate cakes and chocolate cakes"

Customer: "ok, I'll take it anyway"

You: "that's 50 pounds please"

Customer: "What? 50 pounds for a cake?"

You: "Yes, it's the very best example of its kind"

Customer: "But I only need it for my daughter's 8th birthday, we're not having the Queen for tea"

You: "Ah but now you'll have the best under all circumstances! What if the Queen DID pop in for tea?"

Customer: "..."

Edited January 9, 2017 by Aashenfox

[RobPhoboS]

There is tip top info on the thread, and it truly did help me make a decision.

Mods please don't lock it

 

I really encourage anyone interested in suspension to check out the channel I posted on reply #29 & #31.

He's independent, revalves his customers suspension and tunes them to what they are after (from road to race car).

[RobPhoboS]

I could tell the difference between the MeisterRs and the KWv3s in the first couple of hundred yards.

 

But did you not say yourself that they were the entry level MeisterR's ? (£700 vs £1800)

 

[Aashenfox]

<snip>

 

I wasn't actually giving advice, you're the one doing that, badly, imo, though ironically, the right advice is probably in there somewhere , you're just having trouble presenting it.

 

I'm not into comparing penises, suffice it to say I don't need your help with car geometry, though you may be more knowledgeable than I, thanks anyway. You haven't even mentioned the two worst things about lowering on coilovers, roll center and droop, but whatever...

 

I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you are saying, more with the way you are presenting your information, and it's typical of people like you (highly knowledgeable, spent a long time reading, perfecting, and I respect that), the fact is though, that level of technical know-how is simply not needed for people such as the frequenters of this forum, in fact the pedantic (adjective, not jibe) way in which you are dissecting what other people have written without good reason, makes you come across combative and does muddy the waters.

 

All people need to know is that if you are looking for a good street coilover, anything over 700 quid will be decent, but KW V3s or Ohlins if you have money and want to do the occasional track day will serve you better and with a wider and more accurate adjustment range, but then if you're doing that, then you might as well stiffen up a lot and do a corner balanced setup, then if you're doing that, it won't be ideal on the road any more...you might as well have two cars. There you go, I just gave all the info that anyone needed and without technobabble or getting up anyone's nose.

 

Bottom line is that for anyone's street use and even the occasional track day, Meisters, KWs, HSDs, BC, all are more than any mere mortal will ever require to set their car up for a nice middle ground between track and road use.

 

So, you think my analogy of chocolate cake needed to have anything to do with suspension, and wasn't actually about your attitude? And there I was hoping that your geometry comprehension would be matched by your reading comprehension.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Aashenfox

[RobPhoboS]

I could tell the difference between the MeisterRs and the KWv3s in the first couple of hundred yards.

 

But did you not say yourself that they were the entry level MeisterR's ? (£700 vs £1800)

 

ZetaRs wherever they are on the scale of things now.

 

Otherwise, I don't see your point. What are £1800, the new MeisterRs? The KWv3s are £1600.

 

They are the entry level ones, or cheapest if you like.

And your comparing the top end road/track day KW v3s which cost £1728 RRP (or cheaper potentially elsewhere) against them, which seems pointless. Same as comparing Bilstein B6 shocks against their top road/track day shocks, obviously more development has gone into the higher ones (I'd hope).

[Aashenfox]

Not familiar with the basics of free market economics either. Oh well. /shrug.

[RobPhoboS]

You were the one asking whether you'd get a better ride from KWv3. I said yes you will. Everyone else thinks not.

 

Yup, and I've zero problem with that, it's great to get a confirmation from people with them on the cars.

I just pointed out that it seemed fruitless to compare what you'd suggested as that is highly suggestive to say that all of the MeisterR models are the same, that's not on.

[MeisterR]

All people need to know is that if you are looking for a good street coilover, anything over 700 quid will be decent

 

This is something I want to bring up to attention that it isn't true.

One have to remember that a suspension is only going to perform as well as it's setting.

The best suspension in the world with the incorrect setting / setup will still perform poorly.

 

Just because a suspension is expensive, it doesn't make it any better if the suspension setting was wrong to begin with.

Spending £3000 for some race suspension and putting it on a road car, will yield poorer performance than a £700 suspension that were designed for road use to begin with.

 

Many have fallen into the idea that expensive must be better, and you get what you pay for.

And while sometime it is true, the idea that more expensive must be better, or that all equal price item must equally perform similar is incorrect.

 

Especially in the suspension world, because it cost the exact same amount to build a damper with the incorrect specification vs building a damper with the correct specification.

 

OBJECTION:

 

 

Jerrick

[MeisterR]

Stop confusing these people with your psuedo science.

 

I am still waiting for your REAL science.

 

And while we are on science, let me ask you a VERY BASIC questions.

All vehicle dynamics start with a single point, and that is 100% critical damping force (specifically critical rebound force).

 

At what adjustment does your beloved KW V3 reach critical rebound force?

Because without knowing that adjustment point, it is literally impossible to tune a dampers.

 

That is just pure science, something that is calculate-able and presentable on a piece of paper.

So please let us know about REAL science on your KW V3, because we are all waiting

 

Jerrick

[Aashenfox]

All people need to know is that if you are looking for a good street coilover, anything over 700 quid will be decent

 

This is something I want to bring up to attention that it isn't true.

One have to remember that a suspension is only going to perform as well as it's setting.

The best suspension in the world with the incorrect setting / setup will still perform poorly.

 

Just because a suspension is expensive, it doesn't make it any better if the suspension setting was wrong to begin with.

Spending £3000 for some race suspension and putting it on a road car, will yield poorer performance than a £700 suspension that were designed for road use to begin with.

 

Many have fallen into the idea that expensive must be better, and you get what you pay for.

And while sometime it is true, the idea that more expensive must be better, or that all equal price item must equally perform similar is incorrect.

 

Especially in the suspension world, because it cost the exact same amount to build a damper with the incorrect specification vs building a damper with the correct specification.

 

OBJECTION:

 

 

Jerrick

 

Fair comment, I'm well aware of this, and stand by what I wrote for the layman. Again, let's not get bogged down in deep technicalities, you all know the price range and even specific products to which I am referring (BC, HSD, D2, some others). Of course I'm not suggesting that if a set of 200 quid coilovers was sold for 700 quid that somehow they would magically suddenly be good, as Mr Rabbit is trying to suggest. And of course ANY suspension is only as good as the person who set it up. Both of those go without saying, hence I did not say them.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Aashenfox

[Snjur]

So far I haven't manage to find any bad reviews on Meister Gt1's out there from various users on various cars. And have been looking for last day or two. A guy who is lapping Ring 08:25 with Ep3 has only words of praise for them and that result I think speaks for it self. So either Meister is putting a lot of effort in propaganda or actually this coilovers are doing a good job

 

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[RobPhoboS]

Just because a suspension is expensive, it doesn't make it any better if the suspension setting was wrong to begin with.

Spending £3000 for some race suspension and putting it on a road car, will yield poorer performance than a £700 suspension that were designed for road use to begin with.

 

Which is exactly what Shaikh proved in several of his videos, in particular Motons that were really intended for track use only, plus a heap of phase delay with ridiculously long piping for the external reservoir.

That's obviously NOT to say they are poor quality but were used for the wrong application and were revalved.

Just for an example.

[docwra]

All people need to know is that if you are looking for a good street coilover, anything over 700 quid will be decent,

BOOM! And there you have it. They can sell you any old sh1t but as long as it's priced at ~£700, you'll all be happy.

 

I rest my case

 

Why are you being such a knob? Thats not what he said at all.

 

Similarly comparing £700 MeisterRs with £1700 KW's isnt valid, and then going on to repeatedly knock Jerrick and the GT1 despite never actually trying them out is just a massive dick move.

 

Jerrick is undoubtedly one of the better traders in this scene, understanding his product and providing evidence and real world experience whenever anyone asks. The stuff he types is not copy and paste, the guy genuinely knows what he is talking about.

 

Your bullshit about "fast road" not actually existing (Ive been using the term for 20 years without any misunderstanding) and avoiding direct questions isnt helping anyone, least of all yourself. FWIW Im 99% Ill be ordering some GT1's in the very near future, if they are rubbish youll be the first to know but I doubt they will be.

[GappySmeg]

So why not call it a tarmac rally setup? And I can absolutely promise you a road car DOESN'T want the same dynamics as a Tarmac rally car.

 

This is before owner profiling has entered the equation.

 

Stop confusing these people with your psuedo science.

 

I don't know what your problem is mate but the majority of posts I've seen from you are overly aggressive and self righteous, there's no need to attack people because you disagree with them.

 

Yep... and still no apology for claiming Meister's post was plagiarised.

 

Are you on commission from KW or something?

 

Nope. But Jerrick earns for his wares sold. Make of that what you will.

 

And the stuff Jerrick posted is all available from the internet - nothing new there.

 

https://www.qa1.net/...monotube-shocks

https://www.tein.co....ecial/ni_toryu/

 

A couple of links out of the hundreds available

 

Nope, I think you misunderstand... you accused him of "copying and pasting" his post, but now you're merely backing that up with "well it's public domain info"... that's not the same thing at all. It's been public domain info since Principia Mathematica, that doesn't mean all physicists are plagiarists!

 

Have your winky and smiley back

[RobPhoboS]

Did you watch the videos I put up ?

[RobPhoboS]

Replies #29 & #31

 

Take some time to look through his channel IF you are interested in suspension.

[Sargara]

After reading this topic and few PM exchanged with Jerrick I have dedicated to give a try to Meister R Gt1's. Originally I set my mind on Tein Monoflex so Gt1's are little bit over budget and in price range of Kw 3.

Due to my job time when I'm at home I tend to spend quality behind the wheel. Car is twin turbo suspension has already upgrades in terms of toe arms front and rear, energy suspension bushings and so. I did tried my share of various coilovers on my rides as well others from Chinese all the way to Kw Clubsport. So how it look by the end February begging March it should Gt1's should be on the car and will writte a review. My test route is 420 km from capital to sea side. Mixture of everything fast section, curvy one's, over the mountain where the rod is quite bumpy due to temps in winter which cause tarmac to crack. And of course track day event on Grobnik race track

 

Sent from my SM-G850F using Tapatalk

 

I look forward to reading the update in your epic build thread. Keep us posted