A grammar question for Hugh

[ioneabee]

get digging and head for Aussie land and then fill it back with GSB ............ you're gonna need a lot of trucks and some long reach jcb's

[ATTAK Z]

It gets worse down to 3m where the rock is ... so that'll be 6000m3 of GSB please ... I can see it now

 

'Tennis courts for hire - only £100 per hour' 'Bring you wellies, just in case you need to get on court'

[Strudul]

Turn it into a trampoline park instead?

[Rock_Steady]

An acronym is the initial of every beginning letter that spells a word that is already in use, so NASA is not an acronym it's just an abbreviation as there is no verb " to nasa " for example. An acronym will be something like BASE jumping. Base is a word that's in use and has meaning in the language.

 

Pronunciation is a pretty moot subject as there is no blanket accent for the UK. You'd be surprised at how people say things compared to how things are written.

 

"Can you do me a favour" will sound more like "Kunya-do-meeya-favour" for lack of the use of Phonemes. Or at least in the south of the UK.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Rock_Steady

[coldel]

An acronym is defined as being an abbreviation. I always use NASA as an example of an acronym as that's what the English Dictionary uses

[Aashenfox]

Well this is interesting ... From a personal point of view I would never ever use the word 'Xmas' instead of 'Christmas', neither written nor spoken.

 

I think all contributions on this thread are valid - well most anyway. The only thing I would say is that anyone who has learned Greek has my congratulations ('cos it's hard to learn) and my condolences ('cos there are few people you can hold a conversation with).

 

Finally (and this brings tears to my eyes), I am now going to hand over the role of GLO to Aashenfox ... many thanks to all who have supported me in making the Forum a safer place.

 

I wish you all an Feliz Navidad

 

I don't know what to say, I'm welling up!

 

Rock, an acronym is an intialisation that becomes spoken as a word. As Coldel pointed out, NASA, because we say it as NASSER (not as En, Ay, Ess, Ay) is an acronym. If we said it as the sounds of the letters, it would be an initialisation, as HSBC (aych, ess, bee, see) is an initialisation. If we said HSBC as Huzbuk, then it would be an acronym.

 

Dialects aside, there is a right and a wrong way to not only speak, but also structure sentences. Yoda speak for example is often cited (except for some curious exceptions) as one of the purest formal forms of English, as the verb is placed last. This is a throwback from Latin, where every sentence was said as a story, also why Italian developed from it and sounds like singing. So yeh in Latin, you have a strict word order, subject, object, verb. First the star is introduced, then the other players or related objects, then lastly we find out what they are doing. It's a way of speaking that made for great orations (friends, romans, etc etc) and is called AN SOV language (sub - obj - vrb). English eventually developed to be AN SVO language because it is slightly more efficient and intuitive to the way the brain processes information, SVO languages are considered efficient because you don't have to wait til the end of the sentence to find out what the point is, Latin keeps you in suspense right til the end You start to see where culture plays a role in language, Latin which was a language that had great impact, evolved into the most artistically spoken language (Italian), this is their culture, to embellish, and don't they just, in everything!

 

Johnny, with the ball, is playing - Latin structure, SOV.

Johnny is playing with the ball - English structure - SVO.

 

For interest value, discounting oriental languages cos I don't know crap about them, Greek was one of the earliest SVO languages, probably why it became the language of science, and to this day, the SOV style (storytelling style, verb last, as per yoda) is the most widely used grammar model, but only by a very small percentage. As English speakers, we are quite lucky that our language is flexible enough to switch between grammar models if we want to, although it sounds really weird sometimes, like the Johnny and the ball sentence above, you CAN say it SOV, but it doesn't sound 'right', however, one of Yoda's famous quotes "Around the survivors, a perimeter create!" is just a beautiful sentence. Greek for example, has no such flexibility, if you change the word order from what is natural you are immediately talking gibberish.

 

Speaking of which, you guys seen this interesting anecdote, it's been popping up a lot lately...

 

In English, the order of adjectives is curiously more important than in any other language.

 

For example, you can say "a big, fat, hungry, green bear" in English, but you can't say "a green hungry fat big bear", it sounds like rubbish, or at best, unnatural. In Greek you can mess around with the adjective order as much as you want, it makes no difference. Curious this language business, eh?

Edited December 20, 2016 by Aashenfox

[coldel]

My wife speaks a number of languages, her understanding of grammar is so much better than mine simply because you learn not only another language but also how language is created and used - I find actually that Brits miss out on learning the construction of language as well as say our European counterparts because English is so important as a business language. I went to an utterly dreadful school as a kid, English class involved having a book thrown at us and told to read it in silence for an hour whilst the teacher disappeared off for cups of tea. I had to learn English when I left school

[Stutopia]

My wife speaks a number of languages, her understanding of grammar is so much better than mine simply because you learn not only another language but also how language is created and used - I find actually that Brits miss out on learning the construction of language as well as say our European counterparts because English is so important as a business language. I went to an utterly dreadful school as a kid, English class involved having a book thrown at us and told to read it in silence for an hour whilst the teacher disappeared off for cups of tea. I had to learn English when I left school

 

Pah! We don't need no stinking foreign languages!!! 23% of the world population used to be British Empire don't you know?

 

#2016isthenew1916

#makeGBgreatagain

 

[davey_83]

A'

[docwra]

Read the first post a couple of days ago and thought "Bollocks, xmas isnt a word" :lol;

 

The best book Ive read on etymology of English is Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson, a lot of the irregularities in English arent actually there for any good reason, they are just there. Its amazing how much effect a few (wrong at the time) people have made

[Aashenfox]

My wife speaks a number of languages, her understanding of grammar is so much better than mine simply because you learn not only another language but also how language is created and used - I find actually that Brits miss out on learning the construction of language as well as say our European counterparts because English is so important as a business language. I went to an utterly dreadful school as a kid, English class involved having a book thrown at us and told to read it in silence for an hour whilst the teacher disappeared off for cups of tea. I had to learn English when I left school

 

You are so right, I was so lucky to have been classically educated (Latin and English), and then learn Greek, such insight into all languages with these bases. I am grateful to the universe for this bit of luck on a daily basis. I speak decent French as well, but I'm getting rusty cos I haven't been for many years. My wife speaks 5 languages too, but she only studied for one (Greek (native), Turkish (father), English (me and spent 6 years in the UK), Italian (studied) and French (French school from 5 to 15)). In Europe, I'd say a great number of people speak more than one language effectively, possibly 50%. It's both good and bad luck to be born an English speaker, sure you already know the language of business, but you have little reason to learn another language and therefore many English people miss out on this valuable experience (learning and speaking a foreign language).

[coldel]

Yes she picked up Italian well whilst living there (well she pick up Neapolitan actually!) but learnt how to construct language and why we say what we do, so when it came to learning French and Spanish she picked them up lightning quick using those skills. This skill of language construction 'appears' to be less important in the UK compared to living on the continent, happy to be proven wrong though.

[Aashenfox]

Well done to her! The lack of mathematical structure is the same thing that makes English both one of the easiest languages to learn, but also one of the hardest to master. You can say just about anything and be understood, but the nuances to be absolutely correct are wild. We also have some great advantages that we don't differentiate between formal and informal, or assign gender to all nouns, but we have other equally complex nuances for the advanced student to master.

[coldel]

Oh god yea formal and informal, French! I wonder how much I offended the French people by simply using the word 'Tu' instead of 'Vous' until I realised what I was doing

[Aashenfox]

Greek also has both formality and gender, it's a minefield every day to not be rude by accident when you are learning, thankfully it becomes instinctive quite quickly.

 

I think countries with the formal/informal thing are quite used to English speakers getting it wrong and hold back their offense. Even the arrogant French who won't speak English to you despite speaking it fluently!! Another language product of a proud culture.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Aashenfox

[Rock_Steady]

An acronym is defined as being an abbreviation. I always use NASA as an example of an acronym as that's what the English Dictionary uses

Yes, it is a type of abbreviation, but NASA is not an acronym. Even if it is used as an example in the dictionary, it's still wrong. As i said, it has to spell out an actual word in use to be an acronym i.e. a verb

[Rock_Steady]

Well this is interesting ... From a personal point of view I would never ever use the word 'Xmas' instead of 'Christmas', neither written nor spoken.

 

I think all contributions on this thread are valid - well most anyway. The only thing I would say is that anyone who has learned Greek has my congratulations ('cos it's hard to learn) and my condolences ('cos there are few people you can hold a conversation with).

 

Finally (and this brings tears to my eyes), I am now going to hand over the role of GLO to Aashenfox ... many thanks to all who have supported me in making the Forum a safer place.

 

I wish you all an Feliz Navidad

 

I don't know what to say, I'm welling up!

 

Rock, an acronym is an intialisation that becomes spoken as a word. As Coldel pointed out, NASA, because we say it as NASSER (not as En, Ay, Ess, Ay) is an acronym. If we said it as the sounds of the letters, it would be an initialisation, as HSBC (aych, ess, bee, see) is an initialisation. If we said HSBC as Huzbuk, then it would be an acronym.

 

I'm not talking about the pronunciation of NASA, i'm talking about what qualifies an acronym compared to an abbreviation, i'll grant you they can over lap however, it still has to spell out a word that has meaning. NASA has no meaning in this current form as USA has no meaning as an abbreviation as they are not used as verbs or adjectives. It has no verb form or adjective form. Therefore it's just an abbreviation.

[coldel]

Well you might want to write to Oxford Dictionaries and point out their error

https://en.oxforddic...inition/acronym

 

An acronym simply has to be an abbreviation using the initials of other words and be pronounceable, it does not have to be an actual word in the English language. If its not pronounceable it is an initialism.

 

An 'abbreviation' is a noun and means to shorted something, it doesn't actually define a specific type of acronym/initialism. HSBC and NASA are both abbreviations, but one is an acronym and the other an initialism.

[Rock_Steady]

look at it this way. LASER which is an acronym is used as a verb. I want to laser this hair off my back, for example. Originally it was an abbreviation until it was used as a word to describe an action. RADAR is just an abbreviation as it's not used in the same way. SCUBA was an abbreviation but is now an acronym because it is used as a verb and an adjective.

 

Maybe i should contact Oxford to tell them about their cavalier error but i'n not particularly bothered about it. Just because the Oxford dictionary says so doesn't make it gospel. Someone wrote that in, someone can make mistakes.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Rock_Steady

[coldel]

The actual definition of an acronym is an abbreviation of a number of words using the first letters, which is pronounceable (there is no rule about it being a verb or the like it just must be pronounceable). NASA qualifies on as an acronym based on that agreed definition. To abbreviate is part of the process of creating an acronym and an initialism - it is not a definition of either one or the other.

 

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one mate!

[Aashenfox]

Well this is interesting ... From a personal point of view I would never ever use the word 'Xmas' instead of 'Christmas', neither written nor spoken.

 

I think all contributions on this thread are valid - well most anyway. The only thing I would say is that anyone who has learned Greek has my congratulations ('cos it's hard to learn) and my condolences ('cos there are few people you can hold a conversation with).

 

Finally (and this brings tears to my eyes), I am now going to hand over the role of GLO to Aashenfox ... many thanks to all who have supported me in making the Forum a safer place.

 

I wish you all an Feliz Navidad

 

I don't know what to say, I'm welling up!

 

Rock, an acronym is an intialisation that becomes spoken as a word. As Coldel pointed out, NASA, because we say it as NASSER (not as En, Ay, Ess, Ay) is an acronym. If we said it as the sounds of the letters, it would be an initialisation, as HSBC (aych, ess, bee, see) is an initialisation. If we said HSBC as Huzbuk, then it would be an acronym.

 

I'm not talking about the pronunciation of NASA, i'm talking about what qualifies an acronym compared to an abbreviation, i'll grant you they can over lap however, it still has to spell out a word that has meaning. NASA has no meaning in this current form as USA has no meaning as an abbreviation as they are not used as verbs or adjectives. It has no verb form or adjective form. Therefore it's just an abbreviation.

An abbreviation is a catch-all term to mean any word that has been shortened in any way, be it by initialisation (and therefore potentially an acronym), or removal of some letters in favour of an apostrophe to make the word shorter to say or write.

 

Examples:

 

An abbreviation which is an initialisation, which is also an acronym is NASA.

An abbreviation which is an initialisation but not an acronym is HSBC

An abbreviation that is not an initialisation (and therefore cannot be an acronym either) is lb for pounds, or Dr. for doctor.

 

This does not change the definition of an acronym, and the clue is in the greek of the word. 'onym' is a name, think of syn'onym' direct translation from Greek 'like name'. So an acronym is an initialisation that has become the name of a noun (not necessarily a Proper name, not to be confused) and been adopted as a word. An initialisation is just a bunch of letters said in an order, but still just as much of an abbreviation.

 

Hence HSBC could only be an acronym if we said it as 'HuzBuk', it is then an initialisation that represents the name of a brand new noun, or in this case, organisation 'huzbuk', that would be the defining characteristic that would then make it an acronym. All acronyms started off as initialisations until someone decided how to pronounce them as a complete word and then spread that usage until it became so common that the initialisation became an acronym. As you see, it is actually ALL about the pronunciation of the abbreviation, whether or not it is an acronym. some people will try to say all initialisations as acronyms to make remembering them easier, one example from software is the abbreviation in auditing 'EGA' - Evidence gathering activity. I ALWAYS say it as an initialisation (Ee, Gee, Ay), because that's what is, but some colleagues make it an acronym when they pronounce it 'egger'. If this usage ever becomes the more common, then EGA ceases to be an initialisation and becomes an acronym.

 

P.S. There are no errors in the Oxford English Dictionary unless they have been introduced recently.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Aashenfox

[Rock_Steady]

The actual definition of an acronym is an abbreviation of a number of words using the first letters, which is pronounceable (there is no rule about it being a verb or the like it just must be pronounceable). NASA qualifies on as an acronym based on that agreed definition. To abbreviate is part of the process of creating an acronym and an initialism - it is not a definition of either one or the other.

 

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one mate!

i suppose so

[Rock_Steady]

Well this is interesting ... From a personal point of view I would never ever use the word 'Xmas' instead of 'Christmas', neither written nor spoken.

 

I think all contributions on this thread are valid - well most anyway. The only thing I would say is that anyone who has learned Greek has my congratulations ('cos it's hard to learn) and my condolences ('cos there are few people you can hold a conversation with).

 

Finally (and this brings tears to my eyes), I am now going to hand over the role of GLO to Aashenfox ... many thanks to all who have supported me in making the Forum a safer place.

 

I wish you all an Feliz Navidad

 

I don't know what to say, I'm welling up!

 

Rock, an acronym is an intialisation that becomes spoken as a word. As Coldel pointed out, NASA, because we say it as NASSER (not as En, Ay, Ess, Ay) is an acronym. If we said it as the sounds of the letters, it would be an initialisation, as HSBC (aych, ess, bee, see) is an initialisation. If we said HSBC as Huzbuk, then it would be an acronym.

 

I'm not talking about the pronunciation of NASA, i'm talking about what qualifies an acronym compared to an abbreviation, i'll grant you they can over lap however, it still has to spell out a word that has meaning. NASA has no meaning in this current form as USA has no meaning as an abbreviation as they are not used as verbs or adjectives. It has no verb form or adjective form. Therefore it's just an abbreviation.

An abbreviation is a catch-all term to mean any word that has been shortened in any way, be it by initialisation (and therefore potentially an acronym), or removal of some letters in favour of an apostrophe to make the word shorter to say or write.

 

Examples:

 

An abbreviation which is an initialisation, which is also an acronym is NASA.

An abbreviation which is an initialisation but not an acronym is HSBC

An abbreviation that is not an initialisation (and therefore cannot be an acronym either) is lb for pounds, or Dr. for doctor.

 

This does not change the definition of an acronym, and the clue is in the greek of the word. 'onym' is a name, think of syn'onym' direct translation from Greek 'like name'. So an acronym is a an initialisation that has become the name of a noun (not necessarily a Proper name, not to be confused), whereas an initialisation is always an abbreviation, but if expressed only as the characters is not a 'name' of a noun, it's just letters.

 

Hence HSBC could only be an acronym if we said it as 'HuzBuk', it is then an initialisation that represents the name of a brand new word 'huzbuk', and is therefore an acronym. All acronyms started off as initialisations until someone decided how to pronounce them as a complete word and then spread that usage until it became so common that the initialisation became an acronym representing the name of an organisation or object. As you see, it is actually ALL about the pronunciation.

 

Words from other languages used in English may not always have the same or original meaning of where they have come from. Take the word Idiot for example, in Greek that meant anyone who wasn't a politician. Does it mean that now? No, quite the opposite. So using it to credit your point is debatable.

[Rock_Steady]

BTW ( which is an abbreviation ) i enjoy being an arrogant tosser once in a while

[Aashenfox]

BTW ( which is an abbreviation ) i enjoy being an arrogant tosser once in a while

 

We should give seminars on arrogance together.

 

Idiot is from the word Idiotis, meaning an individual. Its usage as a slur in English is not due to mis-translation, since the original meaning is 'someone who stands alone, not part of the whole or the body', or rather, to take it to its english meaning, someone with whom nobody agrees, they stand alone - an idiot. So the translation is pretty much direct in this case.

 

For example, when I buy a car in Greece, I can buy from an 'emporos' - a dealer (hence our word emporium), or an idiotis (an independent individual). That the word Idiotis has no negative connotation in Greek is certainly true, but the meaning is clear 'one who stands alone'.

 

If you want an example of a word that is used totally incorrectly, then look at apocalypse. The word apokalypsi in Greek means discovery, the removal of a covering, and it always has. Our mis-translation has to do with bad translations of the Bible over the years. I know loads of these (naturally since I speak fluent greek and english), but no other springs to mind currently.

 

Not really sure what this has to do with acronym vs initialisation though, which are both sub-categories of abbreviation and the definitions of which are not debatable, one is said and used as a noun, the other is just a series of letters!!

Edited December 20, 2016 by Aashenfox