Just got Stage 3 from Abbey

[dmstewart]

Hi everyone, got my 370 about a month ago and been delighted with it, having had a 350 a few years back. Decided to get a few bits done because I just can't resist, so took it into Abbey Motorsport (who were fantastic) and got the following:

 

- Milltek non resonated cat back

- Cobra hi flow CAT

- Eibach pro springs & camber kit

- Ecutek remap with 4 maps

 

Whilst I love the sound of a cold air intake, I'm told and read that they make no difference to performance, in fact may decrease slightly, so have stuck with the K&N drop ins.

 

I've posted the results below, which I'm pretty happy with. Biggest difference performance wise is mid-range which now feels a lot more responsive plus the fantastic sound coming out of the tail pipes, particularly on the downshift with Synchrorev! Oh and that fact that speed bumps have once again become my greatest nemesis.

 

Next up is brakes and tyres. I want to get new alloys but I think I'll have to buy the other half a holiday before I get away with that...

 

The forum has been incredibly helpful reading when deciding what to get done, so thank you to everyone who contributes!

 

Will post some pics soon.

Cheers,

Darren

[Jonny B]

Sounds like you're having fun with it.

What 4 maps did you get with the Ecutek? Also did you get launch control and flat foot shifting?

I'll be getting mine done soon and can't wait 😀

[GMballistic]

Moved to the correct section Darren, ...hope you enjoy the Zed & its new found power.

[nub]

I don't even get what the left side of the chart means. A stillen Gen 3 is the only intake which is proven to give gains being a true CAI. I think they claim 12-18 BHP or so. I wonder if I could get away with lowering one if I buy one 🤔

 

 

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Edited December 8, 2016 by nub

[Dynamic Turtle]

Hmm not sure if the stillen can pull that off...

 

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[Diggerman]

normally I'm on fence when companies claim numbers but nearly all claim "up to" where as stillen claim a definitive 20whp on the 350z which if it wasn't possible would lead to some very large law suits suing hem for missing representation and false advertising etc etc so in these very rare instances I'd be very confident in getting that number, enough so that it's the reason I'm buying one in the new year

[Jetpilot]

A stillen Gen 3 is the only intake which is proven to give gains being a true CAI. I think they claim 12-18 BHP or so.

 

Stillen may "claim" that increase in a best possible case scenario, but "proven" is a completely different kettle of fish, i would bet my left nut no one in this country has a "proven" increase of 12-18hp from a Stillen intake alone!

[Diggerman]

they claim that it's dyno proven on the website hence my above comment relating to the difference between claiming up to numbers and proved ones

Edited December 12, 2016 by Diggerman

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

The Stillen with the difference diameter pipework will help the rich AFR the early cars due to changing the Air Flow meter voltages but this also adds ignition timing which can cause issues

 

We see huge heat soak with the Stillens short/long tube CAI which we don't like we find the stock airbox's work the best with drop in filters, the Stillen will give a gain at the top end but not enough to offset the heat soak issues.

 

Do they give the gains I have never seen gains as big as this but you do see a gain but for the cost/labour costs I don't feel it is worth the money

Edited December 13, 2016 by Mark@Abbey m/s

[davey_83]

Tuning by number is never a good gig, ever engine is different and responses to aftermarket parts differently. Various mods complement each other, for example fast road cams my add 12-15hp on engine with already fitted with an aftermarket filter/s & exhaust system – yet might only yeld 8-10hp on a bone stock. You can bet the manufacture will advertise the higher figure for obvious reasons.

Edited December 13, 2016 by davey_83

[nub]

The Stillen with the difference diameter pipework will help the rich AFR the early cars due to changing the Air Flow meter voltages but this also adds ignition timing which can cause issues

 

We see huge heat soak with the Stillens short/long tube CAI which we don't like we find the stock airbox's work the best with drop in filters, the Stillen will give a gain at the top end but not enough to offset the heat soak issues.

 

Do they give the gains I have never seen gains as big as this but you do see a gain but for the cost/labour costs I don't feel it is worth the money

 

I'd that the short stillen you're referring to or are you saying the Gen 3 also suffers heatsoak?

Obviously the potential gains on a performance car depend on how effective the stock induction system is.

On my old type R EP3 the best enclosed aftermarket system takes a cold feed from outside the top of the bonnet and with a larger diameter intake pipe (for increased air flow/volume and insulating that cold air from the heat of the engine bay. The concept is quite simple and that's on a 2.0 4 cylinder NA engine it is proven to give 10bhp or more alone on the engine. And I mean proven hundreds of times and the gains have been acknowledged and accepted years ago. So on this more powerful engine is there no induction system that can provide similar gains ?

I know any short open come style will gain top end but suffer heatsoak, but the Gen 3 doesn't appear to be in such a position and when I saw it's design and claims I believed them. So are you saying the Gen 3 is also not really worth the money ?

Are there any inductions kits, that like the exhausts where the proof of gains has been established and it's not just a controversial opinion?

Bring more, colder and subsequently denser air in the engine and there should be gains. 10-20bhp does not seem unrealistic to me, unless of course the OEM system is already maxed out in this regard!

I hope you're wrong because my car made 304whp with CBE, stock intake and high flow cats. So in my opinion, the addition of a stillen Gen 3 plus a decat should be worth at least 20bhp. On our Hondas even the best 200 cell high flow cat would lose at least 10bhp compared to a decat/test pipe. and the 370z has two cats instead of the Hondas -! The fact that type Rs Rev to 8600rpm may be why they respond so well to CAIs

 

 

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[Tricky-Ricky]

In my experience heat soak is only really a problems at low speeds/traffic when air flow is slow enough to negate the boundary layer effect, providing of course that the intake has accesses to a good outside airflow, if not and its sucking in under bonnet air you starting with a disadvantage anyway.

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

I agree with Tricky thread above but the alloy pipes are situated above the Headers that cause a lot of heat the pipe sget very hot with low or no air flow and take sometime to cool down , the IAT sensor is situated in the Air flow meter sensor.

 

Nub,

 

 

I am talking about both the short and long tube Stillen headers , the short tubes do suffer from more heat soak than the long tubes, both use Alloy pipes work that holds the heat for long then plastic pipework so suffer from heat soak for longer.

 

We feel the stock airbox/s works best overall conditions. Suffers a lot less than alloy pipework intake from heat soak.

 

With regards seeing a 20bhp gain from a set of intakes and De-cats from a car already tuned as I said via Facebook message I cant guarantee that I am afraid. It will give what it gives on the day I am afraid.

 

Every car is different , the most BHP we have seen from a N/A 370Z was around 320 at the hub (estimated 360 flywheel BHP) with a very expensive set of Headers made for the car which required the motor to be remove for fitment. The £ per BHP was far to expensive I felt for the gains.

 

Tuning NA is a lot harder than a FI car to get gains of over 10% from a high bhp NA car is good going but it is going to cost a lot more per bhp than a FI car

Edited December 19, 2016 by Mark@Abbey m/s

[nub]

Thanks Mark, I know coming from the NA K20 which I eventually supercharged. Our best long tube CAI is made of silicone and makes a good 10-15 BHP over stock. But it's revving up to 8600k, I guess the engines and intakes are different. However I do expect decats to be a fair bit less restrictive than double high flow cats. I would ask what your expectations are there but I'm guessing you're reluctant to say . I personally think 10bhp surely, maybe not many map with decats.

 

 

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[coldel]

I think it all comes down to the engineering, if you put metal tubes up against red hot engine parts, the tubes and the air inside will get hotter. Route these tubes somewhere else and the effect will be different. Also how effective the CAI is means really making fundamental changes to air temps. If air is say 80 degrees, then you cool it to something like 65 degrees, you see an increase air density of 4% its not monumental gains in air intake volumes by any measure - all good and well having cones and nice looking pipes but any effort in cooling the air coming in is quickly diminished by it passing through hot pipework. Probably why the stock intake works so well with thick plastic piping and well shielded casing.

[Dynamic Turtle]

At least people aren't calling them "pop chargers" any more :-/

 

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[nub]

Why didn't they make them from silicone. The best type R intake is made nearly entirely from silicone!

 

 

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[370Nut]

is this 323 bhp at the hubs ? whats the estimated flywheel bhp ?

 

Does the car feel much stronger below 5000rpm ?

[nub]

Bumping an old thread. I was sceptical but on my remap  Mark proved to be correct about CAI vs stock Intakes. Simply touching the aluminium for a second, I can’t deny that it’s too hot to even place your hand on it. And no plastic or silicone will get that hot.  My Z1 CAI kit did not seem to contribute to the gains from my other mods. 

However, im still confused as in the states, on their forums you hear a very different and contradicting theory.  it’s seems pretty much indisputable that the stillen, Z1, AAM style CAIs etc are indeed considered to be the most effective Intakes. With gains of at least 10bhp over stock setup (dependent on existing mods)  which sounds reasonable with larger “cold air” filters. I mean literally everyone chooses one of the CAI options, Z1 promotes it in their 400bhp kit. There’s no mention of heatsoak in the states or any conflicting opinions or alternatives. All of them including the manufacturers like stillen themselves, agree that these CAI performs as it claims. Certainly, I’ve never heard the idea that stock intake provides better gains, or that the CAIs are in fact detrimental with due to heatsoak. 

So something doesn’t add up, as the 350/370Z scene over there is surely much bigger than ours. They cannot all be entirely deluded and misled. Or the general consensus and concept of the CAI over there is basically a scandal of false claims lol. I mean there’s so many dynos over there, somebody would have realised by now if their stock intakes out performs the CAI. But like I said, as much as I’ve read I’ve not seen any threads or posts that challenge or question the possibility. 

Yet as I said, my pipes were hot as ****. And there’s no doubt that any gains from design, larger filters, bigger intake pipes, velocity stack  is at least somewhat negated by heatsoak. They even go further and sell products that are upgrade add ons for your existing CAI. And they are also dyno proven claimed to add another 5-10bhp! Simply by repositioning the filter positions slightly and using even larger filters.  

 

Looking at Darren’s 323whp it seems consistent to confirm that in my case, the Z1 CAI was the weak factor robbing my precious NA bhp. 

Considering I expect my setup would otherwise provide similar gains. It should even be a bit less restrictive in comparison.I’ve got ART Decat Pipes as opposed to Cobra HFCs. As with most cars, I would expect a decat to give at least 5bhp over a pair HFCs. Not a huge difference but even with the most highest flowing 200 Cell HFCs...logically and visibly they must be more restrictive and give several bhp less than a decat. 

In terms of exhaust, I have Ark Grip CBE, which as far as I know and based on design would be similar in performance compared with a milktek. I don’t know if one is better but I know other larger bore CBEs like AAM/motordyne Shockwave would outperform both, by another 5-10bhp (as a  guess!) I had fast intentions on before and that was less restrictive but too loud. 

So we are left with my Z1 CAI vs Darren’s stock intake with K&N filters. All mods considered this appears to be the biggest factor. I wonder if I would gain 5-10bhp by reverting to the same stock setup with drop in filters. 

10bhp is petty and not enough to justify  the cost I know lol. but since I’m due a service anyway I am sad enough to consider doing the switch and remap anyway. 

Also my car was remapped on the hottest day of last year, around 32C. If it had been Like 0 to -2 degrees like the current night temps I might have gained another 5bhp lol 

I still cannot explain all the contradictory claims and dyno charts it in the states. And TarmacSportz etc are happy to recommend and sell the products? backing up the claims too. 

Could it be possible that these CAIs do generally function as intended in normal outdoor road conditions. But might be more susceptible to heatsoak and less functional in an enclosed dyno room? I know all dynos have huge fans to compensate for air flow, and even with the bonnet open, but how many fans does it take to accurately replicate road conditions? I’ve no idea and it’s just a theory. I know all dynos are different and any margin of error between any dynos comparisons wouldnt prove anything. But I’d be interested to know if TDI north non hub dyno rollers also demonstrate that CAIs are useless? Ive been there twice with my hondas, they map Zs too. Silicone/plastic Long CAIs are undeniably the best options for the Type Rs and K20s. Hybrid racing and skunk2 for the FN2. There’s some distance between them but I always see tdi recommending Abbey with the ECUtek so im guessing there’s some partnership or something. They don’t map nearly as many Zs and don’t quite match the experience and knowledge of Abbey or Horsham.  but CAIs are basic stuff and Paul West will definitely have some knowledge to give an opinion. On the functionality of our CAIs, based on some of their customers. If he also condemns CAIs then I might take mine out and burnt it    Or sell it to an American 

 

heres my attempts at reducing heatsoak btw. It’s quality 3” silicone with thick walls which I managed to wrap around the majority of the aluminium.  And then I covered that in layers of the best gold heat reflecting tape. 3 or 4 layers in some areas on it.  I tested one side first to compare , and the surface temp was 60c on the aluminium but half that 30C on my heatsoak protected effort. Which doesn’t mean the aluminium underneath is the same temp but it definitely helps. just comparing the silicone couplers there was a significantly lower surface temp. But as you go further up towards the TBs there’s more metal to metal contact which reduces the difference. 

But at speed the airflow might now have an easier job of keeping the cold or cold, as it flows within the pipes that are now very well insulated and less exposed to heatsoak from the engine bay

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by nub
Random wrong pic

[Tricky-Ricky]

I think your getting way too hung up over 5-10BHP which in reality you will likely never really notice, if wrapping your intake makes you feel better great! but heat soak cant really be avoided, just reduced.

 

There will be a maximum and an average under bonnet temp that is pretty much unavoidable, during normal running, but temps will climb under both high load and low speed or stop,

The air speed in your intake will be pretty cool due to the boundary layer effect and the position of you intake, which should have access to outside air, under normal running IE at speed,

 

The boundary layer effect means that despite the intake pipe temps on the outside, the inside airflow will always be cooler due to the layer of virtually static air that acts like an inner insulation  between the moving air and and pipe walls no matter what the material, so as long as the airflow speed within the pipe is high enough, the moving air will pick up very little  heat.

 

So as said before once you're in low moving traffic or stationary this is when the boundary layer effect is overcome and the airflow inside the pipes start to heat up due to the breakdown of the boundary layer, more noticeable on FI cars  because of the hot air producing less boost due to hot air being less dense.

[nub]

Oh I know debating 10bhp is silly. I’ve also heard that the air passes through so quickly that it doesn’t warm up. But if what you’ve said is true, it doesn’t explain why stock intake outperforms the CAIs on the dynos. I think 10bhp is quite significant from the intake alone considering it’s NA. And certainly if it saves buying a £400+ CAI that doesn’t do anything 

[davey_83]

Tbf on a N/A 5bhp here, 10bhp, 12bhp there from bolt on's all add up and complement each other. 

 

Back in the day with my little Almera GTi SR20DE, filter, custom header, decat, exhaust, cams, afpr and pulleys all helped towards the overall 53hp over standard. 

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

@nub did you see this thread re a MK2 Nismo on a UK dyno.

 

 

 

after what was been spoken on the Facebook page re Nismo  370Z BHP

 

 

[Jetpilot]

22 hours ago, nub said:

And certainly if it saves buying a £400+ CAI that doesn’t do anything 

 

I seem to remember the consensus when you asked was pay little attention to the "claims" and stock intakes where best and dismiss dyno readings as they often differ, i wont say we told you so, but...........

 

Perhaps just to throw a theory out there re American cars, i would imagine in popular places, California etc the ambient air temp is considerably higher than the UK, which presumably will lead to increased under bonnet temps compared to here, so maybe dropping a filter directly into the air flow does result in gains for the Americans as its considerably lower than under bonnet temps, just a thought.

 

I seem to remember the 350z was able to display air intake temps with torque pro app, so guess the 370z will do the same, so if you really want to check which is best and whether your insulating has made a difference you can find out.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Jetpilot

[nub]

17 hours ago, Mark@Abbey m/s said:

@nub did you see this thread re a MK2 Nismo on a UK dyno.

 

 

 

after what was been spoken on the Facebook page re Nismo  370Z BHP

 

 

Yep. I was only by the claimed figures lol but you are correct again. That really sux to buy a nismo then and make 320odd bhp WITH HFCs. although I’d like the shorter FD. 

 

If someone links me to this device/app that will show IAT then i’ll give it s test. They are very very well insulated with 3” silicone and layers of gold rap. but ofcourse it contacts metal in various places as you go further up. When more air is flowing it must lower heatsoak, but obviously not enough for the metal intake temp to be cooled significantly. My insulation might tip the balance so that the airflow through the engine is now sufficient  to cool down the insulated pipes, or maintain a lower IAT. So in theory the air within the CAIs remainscooler to some degree and less heatsoaked.  The silicone does still gets warm with airflow like cruising at 60mph, but not nearly as hot as the exposed aluminium piping which also takes ages too cool down. I could have put even more layers of tape or silicone but it is already so much thicker and wider than it was before. Also the is a small gap in most sections between the silicone and the gold wrapped pipe, help would also help. I’ve got a thermometer I’m gonna see what I can determine. 

I can check my temps in different conditions if you guys can tell me what the typical temp should be. As I have no mechanical skills and won’t remove it. Maybe Mark can remember the typical temps with CAI vs the stock plus drop ins?