Tom_K Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Afternoon all, I'm hoping some of you might be able to help, or have experience in this situation. I know I don't post much on here apart from my project thread but my thinking is; you all have nice cars so you must be doing something right in work/life to be able to afford them... So, my situation is as follows: I've been at my current place for just over 5 years now (I'm 31 btw) and recently (around 8 months ago) I changed departments. The new role is extremely difficult because of the way the company is structured and there are several other reasons why I'm not happy there. With that in mind, I've been looking for a new job for the last little while. I think I've been very reasonable and expressed my concerns several times to different levels of management in the hope that they will look at ways to improve the situation, but alas, nothing ever changes. Today I was called into a meeting to be told they're restructuring the department and my current role will be drastically changed, to the point where it goes from extremely difficult to practically impossible. The option of redundancy was mentioned because of how much the roles/responsibilities have changed. It just so happens that my job search may have come up with something (fingers crossed) so my question is: What are the 'rules' or things I should be aware of surrounding this situation? If I was to accept another job before formally accepting redundancy, what would happen? I don't want to jeopardize any potential new role for the sake of a pay-out and would rather get that moving as soon as I can, over trying to be 'clever'. Lets assume here that my current company are not interested in being decent in any way and will do anything to wriggle out of paying someone or being fair. Any help or advice would be much appreciated and I promise to become a more 'active' member of the forum, just as soon as I'm not stupidly busy at work and drained in the evenings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasha@lazytrips Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 a. Check what your notice period is. b. Add 1 month to notice period. Declare that this is your notice period to new better job. c. Schedule meeting with your boss & representative from HR tomorrow/first possible date and say that due to your role being withdrawn/severely altered and because the company mentioned the opportunity of redundancy, you feel that is the correct option for you as you are no longer able to fulfill the requirements of the new role. d. Get that redundancy over the next month. e. Try to negotiate your notice down while maintaining redundancy payout because it is not in the company's interest to retain an unmotivated employee. f. Notify new company that you managed to negotiate an earlier exit because you are so keen to join them. Tell them your new leave date is 2 weeks after it actually is. g. Take a vacation somewhere awesome and recharge - bit like the ginger you get with sushi. h. Start new job. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G1en Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I would arrange meeting with HR asap. Tell them you are seriously considering redundancy option because of A B and C Asking them if you accepted redundancy would you be able to look for another job straight away and when would you be allowed to leave the company. Get it on file, in writing, recorded or whatever and take the money. Most companies offer 1 weeks pay for each year worked as a bare minimum so 8 weeks pay is much better in your pocket than theirs. Most large firms also have a pot of money for redundancies/restructuring so i cant see you having any issues. In my opinion you would be throwing away money by sorting another job out first and handing your notice in as you will get didly squatt and they may make you work the full notice period if they are that way inclined. If you take redundancy they may let you leave immediatly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitstew Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Redundancy is usually a really good option as you get a nice payout and its tax free. Companies dont usually expect people to workout their redundancy, so you can leave straight away on whats known as "gardening leave". If the company is making you redundant, i think theres a law where they have to allow you time off for job interviews and try and help you find another role - I know when ive been made redundant in the past thats certainly whats happened. Personally id go for the redundancy option if you can, then start looking for another job straight away. If your lucky you will get offered another job quickly and not have to touch your redundancy cash! Nice little earner! Oh and when you get interviews, dont say your leaving the other job cos you hate it! Just point out how long you have been there (5 years is a nice length of time), that the company restructured and hence you were unfortunately made redundant. Good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 If the new job is one you REALLY want and believe you'll enjoy, I personally would do whatever it takes to get that job. Personally I rate getting a job that really floats your boat way above a pay off. If you work a notice period before starting the new one, you're not actually "losing" anything, it's money you've never received, so you can't lose it. If, however, the new role is "just another job" and you just want out of the current one much more than you want into the new one, do your best to get the redundancy cash and then jump over. https://www.gov.uk/redundant-your-rights/overview 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Depends on the redundancy terms TBH, if your company only offers the minimum by law then I'd just look for another job, if on the other hand they offer an enhanced redundancy package then its worth looking at. I was made redundant from British Steel some 36 years ago and had another job to go to and with the severance pay on top of the enhanced package came away with 2 years salary tax free . Pete 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_K Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 Thanks for the feedback everyone, it's much appreciated! Just to clarify a couple of things, I don't have another job to go to just yet, I just want to be prepared for an offer (hopefully!) Where does constructive dismissal come into things? As that's basically what's happened; my current job has been altered in a way that I simply cannot continue with so there's only one option left really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 If it is as you say it is, then I'd be looking at that route too. You really need to go and speak with a proper employment solicitor and get their take on it, or use your union if you're a member. That said, from a practical POV I think that Stu's advice is the one to take: Don't get bogged down in stuff that can make your life awkward, just take the easy route if it means that you get into a happy place quicker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 g. Take a vacation somewhere awesome and recharge - bit like the ginger you get with sushi. Thats the worst bit!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnH Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I've been at my current place for just over 5 years now (I'm 31 btw) and recently (around 8 months ago) I changed departments. The new role is extremely difficult because of the way the company is structured and there are several other reasons why I'm not happy there. With that in mind, I've been looking for a new job for the last little while. ... Sorry for the late response, I hope this isn't too late for you! There's obviously no point in asking if redundancy is the right option, it sounds like you made your decision ages ago from the above. First things first, speak to HR and your manager! Talking to your employer is usually the easiest way to get the best outcome. Make it clear that you haven't made a decision as yet but you would like as much information as possible to make that decision and find out what the redundancy package is, asking some questions about the new role first will help to show that you're not just trying to find out what they'll offer. If it's a good package then take it and run. A reasonable package seems to be 1 month for every complete year you've worked PLUS your notice period (although you're often expected to continue in the job if they pay your notice), however they do vary greatly and the minimum legal is a pitance! If the redundancy package isn't great you'll want to google the term "working under protest", it's basically when your job significantly changes you can notify your employer that you're continuing to work but that you don't agree with the changes and will likely be taking legal action along unfair dismissal lines. I'm not saying you should go down that route (the legal route is a pain), however understanding what it means is useful. For example, if they offer you a really bad redundancy package you can try and negotiate, e.g: "So my options are a) to take a role where the objectives seem impossible to achieve, accept a redundancy package which currently doesn't make it worth my while considering as I have a wife/family/home/350Z to support or c) work under protest while seeking external legal advice which I'm sure neither of us want to waste time/money on, is there anything that can be changed to improve a or b?". Bear in mind that they only legally have to pay you the mimimum statutory redundancy though so you want to be polite and don't want to push too far unless you've made the decision to go regardless. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I agree with what most have said. I've had some experience with this. I would avoid suing under constructive dismissal unless absolutely necessary, i.e. the employer is taking the p!ss - especially if you expect to stay in your sector. People do talk, and the important small details will be missed from the headline of 'this employee sued their employer'. If you can get redundancy, go for that - unlikely you will have to work your tenure. They will put you on gardening leave - infact you can negotiate this with your HR as part of your exit. Technically you cannot work in your new role until gardening leave is up, but in reality will your former employer care? - I'm sure there is a way to handle this also. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitstew Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Where does constructive dismissal come into things? As that's basically what's happened; my current job has been altered in a way that I simply cannot continue with so there's only one option left really. I had a Constructive Dismissal once. Basically the company wanted to get rid of me. It was obvious that some Senior people there really disliked me and wanted rid of me. They had changed my job in an attempt to get me to resign and I really hated working there. From what I could see, they had 2 options left. They could either have made up a redundancy and gone through that process, or give me "constructive dismissal". Which from what I understand basically the company making you an offer for you to leave there & then and you accepting it and agreeing not to sue or take them to court etc. In my case, the company went for the constructive dismissal approach. They paid for me to see a local solicitor for him to go over the agreement and explain it all to me. They offered me 3 or 4 months pay tax free. I lept at the opportunity. Pocketed a nice lump sum then spent the whole summer doing labouring on a building site to clear my head before getting another IT role just before the cold weather kicked in. I ended up getting a great tan, getting fit and started the new job fully recharged and with a new outlook on life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_K Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Wow Thanks everyone! It's given me a lot to think about. To those that have said it seems like my mind is made up already; yes, that is true, I've decided I want to look elsewhere. Trouble is, I haven't actually got any firm offers yet, that's what's tricky at the moment. I've also got a few updates on the situation: In order to appear as if I'm trying to make it work, I spoke to HR and asked what the options were in terms of I don't think the proposed job is manageable so what room is there to negotiate there? Their response was pretty limited, it seems to be 'it is what it is' so the roles and responsibilities won’t change and there’s been no mention of renegotiating salary either. What is the redundancy package? It’s statutory, that’s it. They were very clear to say they want to keep me, as I have skills and experience they can’t afford to lose but at the same time, the offer is unmanageable and it’s clear to me that they’re trying to be cheap and combine 2 jobs into one, which I was very clear to say. So their words and their actions are two very different things. So that’s where I stand at the moment. I don’t have anywhere to go to yet, and I do not want to carry on with my current (proposed) role. I don’t want to just jump at the redundancy because a) it’s a pathetic offer and it puts me in a much weaker position to future employers. Oh and edit: I'm not fussed on staying in the same industry, but the most recent offer than has the most chance of progressing IS withing the same industry with a lot of the same people, so I fully appreciate that and have factored it in to my decision. Edited July 27, 2016 by Tom_K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 In that case mate, just try and stick it out. Whenever there is management and role changes which are not for yours (or even the company's) benefit, I would always advise people to do two things: 1. Work to Rule 2. Start checking boxes If your job is important to you and you haven't done this in the past, it will be incredibly challenging. Sometimes we take our roles & responsibilities "too seriously" and work harder than was necessary in hindsight. I personally loathe box checkers (as they rarely add any true value), but needs to be adopted in your type of situation. You just must keep in mind that it's only short term and you will be able to recover any lost time in your next role. Hope this helps and good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixy Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 My last job did various rounds of voluntary redundancy. I didn't know what was going to happen to me in a restructure which was a couple of years down the line but as an independent person living on my own, one wage, mortgage etc I decided I needed to look around for another job. I got offered a new job on higher pay but I fell between two windows of opportunity for voluntary redundancy and because I was out by literally a couple of weeks I didn't get it after 13 years in the job! I've more than made up for it now as I'm on about £10k more now than I was but another person in a similar situation to me went to work in a job with the Police and she just booked herself onto the latest start date she could with them which was easy to do as they don't want immediate starts and book people onto training courses. She just kept her mouth shut and got the money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnH Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Phone ACAS and discuss it, it's free: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2042 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_K Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 I've already called ACAS, very helpful but they basically confirmed that what’s happening is strictly legal but not necessarily fair. As the new job is mine if I want it, they’re fulfilling that aspect. The fact that it’s very different and a ridiculous demand for 1 person doesn’t really factor in. Basic gist is as others have said, don’t jeopardise any potential next steps by trying to be clever. The redundancy money was never there to begin with, so if I find another job in the meantime then I should just treat it as good timing. If on the other hand I don’t, and I’m in the position where it’s either no work or crap work, that’s a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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