Kids

[coldel]

Actually the world is not grossly overpopulated, I have yet to see any evidence it is? Who said? There is more than enough space to take x10 the amount of people, its just that some decide to live in very clustered parts of the world.

 

It's not about space, it's about resources. For example, deforestation doesn't occur so people can live there. And I certainly don't choose to live in a crowded area - it's where I can make money, same as most other people that live in or around London. I'd imagine there's space for far more than 10x the current population, but that's not the point.

 

The problem is that it is not allocated correctly at the moment, that is not overpopulation that is purely a planning issue of the human race. Famines are never an issue of lack of food, they are political failures. Famine is caused by political issues, war, poverty and poor infrastructure - none of these are overpopulation issues. There are also plenty of famous philosophers of the past that said we cannot sustain population growth due to food production capability, unfortunately they could only make that assumption based on the facts put in front of them - you can only make so much bread with my horse driven grain mill - basically as population grows, technology and capability does also which deals with it.

 

Population numbers also show it growing slower than it was in the 50s/60s/70s etc.

 

So, should 'population' be an excuse for no children, other than a tongue in cheek sarcastic comment on here, it isn't.

 

Anyway, bottom line on kids - if you want them go for it, if you don't, don't - it really is just that isn't it.

Edited March 27, 2016 by coldel

[LRF4N]

Fair play to you guys for sticking to your guns on the not having kids argument..... But wiping out the human race cos you don't want to? Seriously?

[sipar69]

Nobody is saying that. If the human race is ever wiped out, which is possible, it won't be because some of us choose not to have kids. There will always be a sufficient number of people who do want kids to propagate the species.

 

The interesting question to mull over is whether it would, or in fact could, be a 'bad' thing for the human race to no longer exist. Personally, I don't think it could be for the simple reason that 'good', 'bad', 'regret' etc are human constructs. Unless you're religious, 'good' and 'bad' exist only in the human mind and since nobody will be left if the human race dies out, 'good' and 'bad' will no longer exist either.

 

Coldel is right that the simple point is - if you want kids, have them and be happy. If you don't want them, ditto. I only get wound up by people who imply that those of who don't want them do really, but just haven't realised it yet.

 

 

[mouthwash]

I only get wound up by people who imply that those of who don't want them do really, but just haven't realised it yet.

 

When I talk to people that have kids that's the one part that really gets me. What they fail to realise is that you can apply that to just about anything you haven't tried.

 

You like a bit of uphill gardening, you just haven't realised it yet... Just wait.

[Zeezeebaba]

It's about individual choice, I certainly don't judge people either way. I still have friends who don't have children and they are perfectly happy in life.

[BobbyZ]

Actually the world is not grossly overpopulated, I have yet to see any evidence it is? Who said? There is more than enough space to take x10 the amount of people, its just that some decide to live in very clustered parts of the world.

 

It's not about space, it's about resources. For example, deforestation doesn't occur so people can live there. And I certainly don't choose to live in a crowded area - it's where I can make money, same as most other people that live in or around London. I'd imagine there's space for far more than 10x the current population, but that's not the point.

 

The problem is that it is not allocated correctly at the moment, that is not overpopulation that is purely a planning issue of the human race. Famines are never an issue of lack of food, they are political failures. Famine is caused by political issues, war, poverty and poor infrastructure - none of these are overpopulation issues. There are also plenty of famous philosophers of the past that said we cannot sustain population growth due to food production capability, unfortunately they could only make that assumption based on the facts put in front of them - you can only make so much bread with my horse driven grain mill - basically as population grows, technology and capability does also which deals with it.

 

Population numbers also show it growing slower than it was in the 50s/60s/70s etc.

 

So, should 'population' be an excuse for no children, other than a tongue in cheek sarcastic comment on here, it isn't.

 

Anyway, bottom line on kids - if you want them go for it, if you don't, don't - it really is just that isn't it.

 

 

Firstly, I'm not trying to tell people not to have kids because the world is overpopulated. My post was in response to:

 

just imagine if everyone will think like some on here who never want children...human race will be extinct in less then 100 years....

 

and I think we're pretty far from that

 

I agree that people should have kids if they want, and for the right reasons. Fearing that the human race will die out is not a 'right reason'.

 

Regarding overpopulation, yes I also agree that the technology exists to support a far larger population, but is that really the right thing to do? What would life be like with 10x the number of humans on the planet as now? Should we continue reproducing until everyone is living in the same conditions as those in central London? Maybe we can go further? And regarding war, poverty and poor infrastructure, these are issues created by humans - they're not issues that are inflicted upon humans. It's a different world that you're talking about where large populations can exist in perfect harmony with each other.

 

I guess your opinion of 'overpopulated' is different to mine, and if you think it's acceptable to breed until natural (non-'humanised') land is non-existant and people are literally stacked upon one another, fair enough. I personally feel that we've reached a level that is around, if not over, optimum.

 

In short, I'm not telling people not to have kids - that's not my right. I was responding to the argument regarding survival of the human race. I simply feel that there are too many humans in the world as it is, and I don't think the fact that we could potentially support more through technological developments is a valid argument for doing it.

[coldel]

What you are referring to is Overcrowding, this is nothing to do with Overpopulation which is a different issue entirely. You can have overcrowding in a number of places in a single environment say a single country, like the UK and as you referenced London is over crowded, but thats not the same as a country being overpopulated.

[BobbyZ]

Okay, overcrowding then. My points are still valid.

[rabbitstew]

Less than a week ago I welcomed my second daughter into the world. Can't put into words how happy it made me only a parent would understand

 

But it won't stop me doing the things I enjoy- iv just ordered a brand new car which will arrive in a month and I will be starting my project car this spring as well. Both cars are 2 door coupes

 

It's really not as bad as it sounds

 

Congratulations on the new daughter. But, good luck on starting the project car. I started working on mine in June 2014, aiming to have it finished by Spring 2015. I managed to spend 1 day on it every week for about 8 weeks before that precious project car time was taken up with other "family" things. So its been sitting there, needing probably just 7 days work on it to complete it since August 2014. Ive also done about 300 miles on my motorbikes (in total) in the last 2 years and I only get to wash my car once every 6 weeks these days.

 

From my experience, having kids does have a major impact on stopping you doing the things you enjoy.

[LRF4N]

It doesn't stop you it just slows you down. I bought the mr2 last April and since then all iv done is change the handbrake gaiter and gear knob

 

Needs new brakes and tyres, couple other bits and bobs for it's mot and tax. Good news is it's booked on next week for the mot

 

Slow progress is still progress

[Ekona]

From my experience, having kids does have a major impact on stopping you doing the things you enjoy.

Best reason to either never have them, or put it off as long as possible!

[coldel]

I had a kid and first thing I did was buy a VX220...then an R33, which I modded, then the GTFour, which I have done so also

[LRF4N]

See? Me and col are on the same page. Only difference is he's actually modding and I'm not

[JetSet]

Actually the world is not grossly overpopulated, I have yet to see any evidence it is? Who said? There is more than enough space to take x10 the amount of people, its just that some decide to live in very clustered parts of the world.

 

Certainly enough space. When I was in school in the 60's my geography teacher informed our class that if people stood shoulder to shoulder then you could fit the entire worlds population on The Isle of Wight . To define overpopulation is not an easy thing though. Countries in the arid parts of East Africa are clearly overpopulated because they are unable to feed themselves when the going gets tough, so I suppose you could declare a country overpopulated when people start starving to death (bit late then isn't it]

 

However, despite the fact we still have plenty of space, the long term future is not that great, we cannot increase the population indefinitely, at some stage we will run out of space and natural resources and more importantly water. Although the earth may be close to 8,000 miles from pole to pole we can only tap into the first 10 miles or so of the Earths crust. Most people don't realize that we have already used up a significant amount of metals such as zinc and copper.

http://www.visualcapitalist.com/forecast-when-well-run-out-of-each-metal/

 

Water is the most crucial thing though, yeah, it's renewable and there's plenty of it but 97% of it we can't drink. Desalinization is expensive and requires vast amounts of energy. Done on a large scale it would in time screw up our oceans and probably kill most of the fish that we eat. The dangerous thing though would involve wars over water, just imagine there is a river that runs through 2 countries and country "A" builds a dam which cuts off the main source of water for country "B" (and both countries have nuclear weapons).

 

So we should be looking at a way of maintaining our way of life without further damaging the environment . It may well be that global warming, some massive natural disaster, pandemic or a war will shape our future in a different way. We may think that we are smart, but if we can't or are unwilling to control the Earth's population and our almost lemming like rush to use up the Earth's resources then we're not really that smart.

 

Pete

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Got two daughters, one is 9 in May, the other 5 1/2 months.

 

Only managed to visit just over 30 countries (7 last year, only 2 this year, but 3 more booked) since I've been a father, started 2 businesses, modded a few BMWs, 350z, 370z and a GTR, been to hundreds of concerts, operas, events, go out most weekends, but also during the week sometime. I'm enjoying every second of it and wouldn't even imagine my life without my family as it is now, the four of us

 

Not being arrogant or patronising, just wanted to show the flipped side of the coin, there's still life after having kids, a lot of it!

 

[grahamc]

Got two daughters, one is 9 in May, the other 5 1/2 months.

 

Only managed to visit just over 30 countries (7 last year, only 2 this year, but 3 more booked) since I've been a father, started 2 businesses, modded a few BMWs, 350z, 370z and a GTR, been to hundreds of concerts, operas, events, go out most weekends, but also during the week sometime. I'm enjoying every second of it and wouldn't even imagine my life without my family as it is now, the four of us

 

Not being arrogant or patronising, just wanted to show the flipped side of the coin, there's still life after having kids, a lot of it!

 

I think you are one of the lucky few. Most I know cant do what you do..... but good for you that you can Lets compare projects

 

Missus and I discussed kids in the beginning and neither of us wanted... 15 years later, its still the same. We enjoy our lives, like the freedom and so on. We have friends with kids and they are great, but I am happy when I hand them back. Both my missus and I had tough lives growing up and neither us wanted to bring a kid into that.

 

The other thing to consider is the stress kids brings to a relationship, I have seen a strong couple that having kids as only made stronger and others where it has torn the relationship apart..... however thats planned VS unplanned as well

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Lets compare projects

 

I'm not that rich, I wouldn't dare! yet!

 

Missus and I discussed kids in the beginning and neither of us wanted... 15 years later, its still the same. We enjoy our lives, like the freedom and so on. We have friends with kids and they are great, but I am happy when I hand them back. Both my missus and I had tough lives growing up and neither us wanted to bring a kid into that.

 

The other thing to consider is the stress kids brings to a relationship, I have seen a strong couple that having kids as only made stronger and others where it has torn the relationship apart..... however thats planned VS unplanned as well

 

Mrs is my first girlfriend, I'm her first boyfriend, we've been together since we were 17. We grew up together and bonded as a couple as we went through a lot of personal matters, some of you here know what I'm talking about, it wasn't easy. We must be the odd ones out, but to us kids have been probably the strongest sealant that in this relationship. There is no way in the world I would see myself where I am today without her and the kids.

 

Unrelated to the above quotes, more like a general reply:

 

Again, I know it's a sensible subject and I should probably stay out of it, but I can assure you I'm not being arrogant, pedantic or patronising at all in what I'm going to say. It's just my personal experience.

 

Even to me it's hard to explain what you actually feel when you hold your kid for the 1st time as it just popped out or when you come home and it doesn't matter how stressful your day was they just brighten you up by hugging you, pulling silly faces, telling you about their latest achievements in school or extracurricular activities, when you see them becoming better than yourself as they grow up and mature and so on, therefore I can really comprehend how can anyone that chooses not to have children express an opinion about parenthood? Not judging either, each individual is FREE to chose what he does with his life. It's only a rhetorical question

 

As an example, I love classical music, been listening to it since I was a teenager, I have lots of world renowned musician friends, conductors, violinists, sopranos, pianists etc, but that doesn't make me a musician. I will never be able to understand what a composer or violinist FEELS

 

Looking forward to the days when I'm going to be old, having both of our daughters coming round to visit us with their kids, too My grand is 92, I speak with him every week as he's still back in Romania. There's nothing else in the world that makes him happier than when we call him or when we go to visit him, it's always a surprise visit, as we know he loves that.

[Mondo 300]

Quite simply, children don't figure in my life whatsoever.

 

I have no finer paternal instincts worth speaking of... I don't have a great deal of time for other peoples' children... and, perhaps most importantly, I remember what an absolute nightmare I was as a youngster and so I have no desire for karma to inflict something similar on me!

 

I don't think there's anything selfish about people not wanting to have children. To be honest, I think it's an incredibly sensible decision considering the horrendous state of the modern world. Certainly, I wouldn't want to bring an innocent into today's world.

 

My missus would like kids, but we established early on that I wasn't the man for her if procreating was something she desperately had to do. Plus neither of us can particularly afford a child and, speaking personally, I don't really see the point in having one if it's going to be a huge struggle to provide afterwards.

 

Speaking as someone who was adopted at an early age here, that option always exists for those who are unable to have children of their own. But, as with everything in life, it should be a personal choice and not something that anyone should be made to feel guilty over (wanting kids or not wanting them, I mean).

[Ekona]

Fellow adoptee here too! *high five*

[BobbyZ]

As an example, I love classical music, been listening to it since I was a teenager, I have lots of world renowned musician friends, conductors, violinists, sopranos, pianists etc, but that doesn't make me a musician. I will never be able to understand what a composer or violinist FEELS

 

Do you often have musicians asking you why you aren't a musician yet?

 

In all seriousness, I'm happy for parents that are happy to be parents. For the other parents, well you made your bed etc.

 

It's certainly no one else's choice whether I have children or not though, and I'm quite willing to remind the ones who forget that fact.

[coldel]

It is funny, I was reflecting on this thread last night on the train home, some few thoughts came to me...

 

'Freedom' keeps getting mentioned by people both with and without kids - mostly those without kids saying they don't want to lose the freedom to do what they want to do. I was thinking about what I used to do when I was 'Free' and remember travelling, eating out, beers with mates, buying stuff, generally having my own time.

 

In terms of how much of that freedom I have lost, I would only say its that my time is dictated more by Alfie, and maybe a bit less sleep, but otherwise nothing has really changed on the other fronts. Don't get me wrong, kids take time up but so do cars, exercising, cooking, getting to work, seeing relatives, writing forum posts - we all lose freedom in some way, but I think there is a perception that you lose everything if you have never had a child and that's the expectation.

 

My wife and I used to eat out 3-4 times a week, now its only 1-2 times a week...actually that feels much more special when we do. Too much of a good thing and all that. I still have beers with mates, I still buy and sell cars and have lots of fun fettling inbetween. I still go on two to three foreign holidays a year (and yes I am counting Scotland in May as a foreign holiday ).

 

Absolutely, us parents have no right to tell other adults they should have children but conversely, I do not agree with people who without actually having had the experience imply quite overtly that parents have lost freedom by saying that they want to keep theirs.

 

As said before, if you do want, have. If you don't, don't and I wont tell you anything otherwise. But if you don't its unfair to be assuming that all us parents have chosen to lose freedom and a way of life, it just isn't true, well in my experience it isn't.

[docwra]

But if you don't its unfair to be assuming that all us parents have chosen to lose freedom and a way of life, it just isn't true, well in my experience it isn't.

 

So how do you both go out together then? Serious Q, most of my mates have had kids in the last few years and its incredibly rare to see both halves out at the same time or TBF even to see the lads out on their own during the week.

 

Not really contributed to this as dont have kids but probably will in the near future, whatever anyone tells me getting out of bed at 1pm on a weekend, going out for a drink with the missus until 10pm on a weeknight and taking holidays at 24 hours notice isnt going to happen anymore.

[gangzoom]

I'll be honest, as someone who's about to enter a life of no-sleep, nappies, paw-patrol, I cannot wait for all my friends who haven't yet had kids to join in the party....For no other reason so more of us can enjoy sharing the 'joyful' pleasures of bringing up children

 

I'm excited though, but cannot honestly say there is a logical reason for it!!! - We're both fully accepting that we'll loss of freedom interms of traveling, having said that apparently 3 month old a easy to travel with because they cannot move. So can see a good excuse for a long haul flight coming up .

Edited March 30, 2016 by gangzoom

[coldel]

But if you don't its unfair to be assuming that all us parents have chosen to lose freedom and a way of life, it just isn't true, well in my experience it isn't.

 

So how do you both go out together then? Serious Q, most of my mates have had kids in the last few years and its incredibly rare to see both halves out at the same time or TBF even to see the lads out on their own during the week.

 

Not really contributed to this as dont have kids but probably will in the near future, whatever anyone tells me getting out of bed at 1pm on a weekend, going out for a drink with the missus until 10pm on a weeknight and taking holidays at 24 hours notice isnt going to happen anymore.

 

Aye its a fair shout, we organised our child care so that part of it included my parents take Alfie from Monday to Tuesday, he sees lots of his family on those days now and loves it, we don't see him Monday nights. We both work so we wouldn't see him during the day either in any case. So Monday nights we organised it this way to ensure we have at least one night out together. We thought other parents might look down their nose at us for 'abandoning' him one night a week, but actually its the opposite and many think its a great idea.

 

We also struck up good deals with neighbours, lucky that we get on with them but to be honest I am just a friendly guy and people fall over themselves to help me out - both those neighbours with kids (playdate) and without (no commitment pretend to be parents night) when we want to go out. We also have a babysitter when necessary.

 

Interestingly in the first 6-12 months all they do is lay in buggies/on the floor/in bed and do not move - you can actually still go out to restaurants etc no problem. Yes babies will cry, you just deal with it (and you will learn instinctively how that works and have your tricks) and get on with eating out. Its when they get older and start talking that it gets a little bit more tricky!

[docwra]

We also got drunk every day this weekend and had people round till 3am one night and 5am another. Tasha spent one full day in bed as she couldnt move

 

Ive just booked us going to Paris for the day tomorrow as Ive got a meeting there so thought we would make a day of it and come home Saturday or Sunday.

 

Any suggestions there?

Edited March 30, 2016 by docwra