Brexit 23rd June..?

[Ekona]

.....not really Dan. You miss my point. We as a country need to be in control of our own destiny. We are in a global economy now I know, but the more beurocrats we have the more complex it gets in doing what is right for our country and our citizens. Just look at Greece.

But we are in control of our destiny. We didn't want the Euro, so we don't have it. That's being in control, is it not?

 

Don't even get me started on the mess that is Greece...!

[choptop]

I appreciate

Greece is slightly different, somewhat ironically that their local polices (such as pensionable age) are what are causing them so many problems. They want to exit the EU so they can effectively print drachmas for fun to pay back money they have borrowed to try and sustain an unsustainable local economy. I actually feel for Greece, yes they happily slide into a spiral of unsustainable debt but the IMF etc. quite happily lent them the money to carry on that way before trying to reign it in before it was too late.

 

There is a belief that being outside of the EU trading bloc you can make up many of your own local laws, which isn't true. The key ones which people are voting leave on for instance such as immigration, will become part of any future trade negotiation between the UK and the EU. We won't know how much control we will have on these issues until the Leave campaign actually come out and say what type of trade deal they want with the EU - this is why I feel like I have to keep shouting this out, the trade deal is pretty much EVERYTHING in this decision to stay or leave in my opinion as it has such wide reaching influences.

 

I appreciate Greece is different but what it does do is highlight how European Beaurocrats make decisions and other countries suffer the financial consequences as a result.

 

This is my view. Everyone is entitled to theirs.

 

 

[Jetpilot]

.....not really Dan. You miss my point. We as a country need to be in control of our own destiny. We are in a global economy now I know, but the more beurocrats we have the more complex it gets in doing what is right for our country and our citizens. Just look at Greece.

But we are in control of our destiny. We didn't want the Euro, so we don't have it. That's being in control, is it not?

 

Don't even get me started on the mess that is Greece...!

 

So what about the 480 odd laws our mps voted against, you think that is being in control of our own destiny?

[coldel]

You could argue the same of the 65% who didn't vote Tory in the last election, even if we were out of the EU 65% of people in this country are being dictated to be a body that is something they haven't voted for.

 

Despite what the red tops would have you believe on the whole (admitting there are some odd laws in the EU though) what they put in place is there to make the union work, its not to spite any particular country.

[Sargara]

You could argue the same of the 65% who didn't vote Tory in the last election, even if we were out of the EU 65% of people in this country are being dictated to be a body that is something they haven't voted for.

 

Despite what the red tops would have you believe on the whole (admitting there are some odd laws in the EU though) what they put in place is there to make the union work, its not to spite any particular country.

 

The difference is coldel, our politics are made up of 3 or 4 main parties that all share/work towards a common goal they plan out in advance but the EU is what, 28 countries and potentially 28 agendas? You cant compare it.

 

Lets take a local firm to me, Bombardier they are based in Derby and make trains. Because of the EU this happened:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...yshire-14019992

it was following EU procurement rules

Edited February 28, 2016 by Sargara

[Ekona]

So what about the 480 odd laws our mps voted against, you think that is being in control of our own destiny?

In a democracy, yes.

 

How many of those 480 laws actually made any difference to our lives?

[Jetpilot]

But is not being in control of OUR destiny is it, it is the EU deciding our destiny.

[Ekona]

This is getting painful, for the both of us.

 

Look, you clearly don't understand how democracy works on a large scale, and I don't understand why you feel it's a big deal that we don't always get what we want. Let's leave it at that, we're going round in circles otherwise.

[Jetpilot]

Oh come on Fanny, its nothing to do with democracy and majority (which i understand), yes the majority of the eu voted for those laws, but that is clearly not the UK elected government being in control of its own destiny (as you said above).

 

Why do you think we are having this referendum, for a laugh? If you think its all fine and dandy because the majority of the eu are making the right decisions thats cool, we all know where your vote will go, but there is a lot that arent happy with control being taken away from the UK government.

[valy]

This is getting painful, for the both of us.

 

Look, you clearly don't understand how democracy works on a large scale, and I don't understand why you feel it's a big deal that we don't always get what we want. Let's leave it at that, we're going round in circles otherwise.

agree with you Dan...I have actually lost my interest in this thread otherwise interesting since it now just goes in circles...and as Flex said I can just hope people will vote with their brains not hearts

[coldel]

You could argue the same of the 65% who didn't vote Tory in the last election, even if we were out of the EU 65% of people in this country are being dictated to be a body that is something they haven't voted for.

 

Despite what the red tops would have you believe on the whole (admitting there are some odd laws in the EU though) what they put in place is there to make the union work, its not to spite any particular country.

 

The difference is coldel, our politics are made up of 3 or 4 main parties that all share/work towards a common goal they plan out in advance but the EU is what, 28 countries and potentially 28 agendas? You cant compare it.

 

Lets take a local firm to me, Bombardier they are based in Derby and make trains. Because of the EU this happened:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...yshire-14019992

it was following EU procurement rules

 

You can't compare it because yes they have to make a bloc of 500m people of different cultures work vs the 70m brits our government have to. Regarding Bombardier, reading the article, isn't it the government that they are complaining about? They also openly admitted that jobs would have gone anyway? Many companies in the UK build stuff for Europe and benefit, there is always a flip side, even as close as people on here such as Ady and Doc who both cite the benefit.

[Stutopia]

Stepping away from what constitutes democracy. Does anyone know what happens to UKIP after the referendum? I mean they are a single policy entity, even its name reflects it's one idea.

 

So, if the people vote to leave, they have no raison d'etre, we will be independent, thus achieving their one policy.

 

And if the people vote to stay, their one policy will have been overwhelmingly rejected by the people and they'll have no mandate.

[Jetpilot]

It will also be interesting to see the turnout %.

[gsexr]

People keep saying that we will have to accept certain laws such as free movement of people as that is part of the European trade agreement but you have to accept that if we vote to come out it may well start a domino effect and laws such as that will possibly be changed.

You also have to accept that laws like that may not apply to us if they want to trade with us as we have special status because they may need us a bit more than you think

[coldel]

People keep saying that we will have to accept certain laws such as free movement of people as that is part of the European trade agreement but you have to accept that if we vote to come out it may well start a domino effect and laws such as that will possibly be changed.

You also have to accept that laws like that may not apply to us if they want to trade with us as we have special status because they may need us a bit more than you think

 

Thats effectively the punt you have to take if you want to leave in very simple terms, do these 27 countries need us more than we need them. If not, then we are in a bit of a pickle. Or they think oh well we can get what we need from other suppliers who operate within the EU and do not need to export so heavily to the UK then we find ourselves in a very lonely place. As mentioned before, it all comes back to the trade agreements, these dictate the 'independence' we want in terms of making policy decisions and ultimately what money ends up going on goods vs in your pockets.

Edited February 28, 2016 by coldel

[samu23]

I think people will still want to buy our good and with the ability to devalue our own currency even have some influence over the demand for our products.

 

You have to think the 4million ukip voters will vote leave? Could be very close!

 

[TT350]

 

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest

 

The owner of Premier Range kitchens in Todmorden scares his completely immigrant staff into working 70 hours a week without contract or signing the 48hr opt out.

 

He also makes them walk his dogs when he's abroad.

[coldel]

I think people will still want to buy our good and with the ability to devalue our own currency even have some influence over the demand for our products.

 

You have to think the 4million ukip voters will vote leave? Could be very close!

 

I think you are right, I think the UK will vote to leave the EU. Just a note though, voting to leave the EU is not the same as voting for independence - leaving the EU is not independence.

[docwra]

I appreciate Greece is different but what it does do is highlight how European Beaurocrats make decisions and other countries suffer the financial consequences as a result.

 

This is my view. Everyone is entitled to theirs.

 

Greece misrepresented their financials to get into the EU, and then failed to do anything about tax evasion or inefficiency of government until it was way too late.

Thats not the fault of the EU anymore than Siemens winning the Thameslink contract and creating net 600 jobs.

 

Similarly, whats the problem with our minimum wage being higher than other countries? The cost of living is higher too, and its not like you automatically get given a British persons job when you come through Calais. Our unemployment rate is the lowest in 10 years and GDP is high, why is skilled workers coming to the UK a problem?

Migration crisis? What migration crisis?

 

Hate to say it but it seems that a lot are already hearing the soundbites and repeating them without actually thinking about the actual situation.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

good article here: http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21693568-david-cameron-will-struggle-win-referendum-britains-eu-membership-if-he-loses

[gsexr]

Dave has made it clear he`s not standing for re-election as Prime Minister so losing the vote is maybe not such a big deal to him.

 

The conservative party will have been blown apart with all the internal conflict and he won`t have to worry too much about sorting it out. He probably decided to not stand again when he had to accept the referendum was going in the manifesto. And lets be honest it only went in because they were running scared of UKIP and thought it was needed.

 

After the landslide victory at the election i imagine the first question he asked was who got it wrong and decided a referendum had to be offered.

 

Hind-site would have been a wonderful thing for him... His career may have had a different route than the one its going to take.

Edited March 1, 2016 by gsexr

[JetSet]

But is not being in control of OUR destiny is it, it is the EU deciding our destiny.

 

When you live in the so called "Powerhouse North", you know, the one with the 12 fastest declining towns in The U.K then it makes little difference being run from Westminster or from Brussels. You could say the same about Wales, being run from Cardiff sucks if you live in North Wales, especially the English speaking North East that borders England. I guess you could say the same about most capital cities in the world, the further away you are the less they care about you. If we do leave the EU then I can't see things changing for the better, the country will still revolve around London and The South East.

 

As far as being in charge of our own destiny anyone would think that The EU makes every law and every decision for this country. It's nowhere near true, we still make the big decisions like High Speed Rail 2, new motorways, The NHS, Heathrow Expansion, Trident, Schooling, income tax rates, Prisons, etc. The problem I have is that politicians of all parties seem to be more interested in political dogma that getting things done, The French have built an integrated High Speed Rail network covering most of France with extensions into Belgium and Germany while we still have railways built in the 1860's apart from one small High Speed section serving London and The South East. France had no North Sea Oil or Gas to pay for it and we just squandered most of ours on what? I would consider voting to leave if I thought that the £30 million a day (or whatever it is) would be put to good use like building hospitals, replacing clapped out schools, getting policing levels back to were they were, having a proper army, navy, air force etc but it'll probably just finish up as more tax breaks for the rich.

 

Pete

[Jetpilot]

So in summary, doesnt matter which party you vote for or whether you vote to stay in the EU, the powerhouse north is f*******d. Sorry Jet, that just sounds like a rant against politics in general and a lot like the cry of the Scots wanting independence and not Westminster making decisions for them.

[Stutopia]

So in summary, doesnt matter which party you vote for or whether you vote to stay in the EU, the powerhouse north is f*******d. Sorry Jet, that just sounds like a rant against politics in general and a lot like the cry of the Scots wanting independence and not Westminster making decisions for them.

 

You're happy to whine on about the loss of control to Brussels and the frankly hilarious "it's not a democracy because I din't vote for the German MEP " gibberish. But at the same time you're not happy for JetSet to make a similar point about the disconnect between the rest of the U.K. with Westminster?

 

You're so desperate to oppose, you'll even oppose yourself

[Sargara]

stop feeding them Jetpilot, the topic will die and fall into the back pages when they can only rub each others backs.