Kieran O'Quick Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 You're dead right but my point is that the interpretation by the working person was what it was. I don't want competition. And the Romanian woman in my example contributed more (and her actual words were "we're trying to survive") put the scroungers to shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoogyRev Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/06/24/thousands-of-british-refugees-make-dangerous-journey-across-the-irish-sea/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 But the definition of a free market, is competition. I think if Cameron had delivered, in laymans terms, the benefits of the EU and the potential repercussions of exiting we wouldn't be where we are now. In a economic flux, it wont be armageddon, you have to ignore Osbornes tax claims etc, but it wont be easy. If they had focused on explaining stuff in easy to grasp terms there might have been a moment of 'ummmm' rather than a hate/want divide. The ironic thing is that the people that are likely to be most affected by this in a negative way are those that voted leave, and those that voted stay in London are the ones that are going to have restructure entire corporations to ensure the economic fallout is impacting us in as little a way as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran O'Quick Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 What I don't get is why the economic faults of the EU were not stressed in the campaign. All we got was leaving would be catastrophically expensive. But then you look at the operation to bribe, finance and destroy countries like Ireland. Put the country into perpetual debt that you then sell to your friends for a nominal fee. It's a plain and simple criminal land grab. I think the gut instinct of revulsion at the EU shouldn't be underestimated - it wasn't all immigration, certainly not with the leavers I spoke to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I sat and watching on facebook as a woman who was born and bred here who has claimed benefits all her life, with three kids, and a council house all funded by the state, with a husband who was unemployed, who spent Friday fishing, put a union jack on her profile picture saying 'proud to be british' and well done on voting out. Thing is, benefits numbers show there are ten of those sorts of people born here for every one of those immigrants. Its pointless trying to put those individual cases forwards as an example. Actually most immigrants are of a younger working age and their tax payments are funding our ageing population doing jobs British people have no interest in. We know this. We know the parasites are draining us. It annoys the hell out of me that I bust my nuts and 80% of my income tax at the end of this month goes to that woman. And we know that Polish immigrants graft their nuts off, you'll hear nothing but admiration from me about Eastern European work ethics, we could learn a lot from them. And I know many racists hate them simply because they're Polish or Romanian, etc. But mass immigration is destructive, as much as the parasitic Brit. You can't justify one against the other. They're both problems. All the UK and EU had to do was listen to the people of Europe (this isn't uniquely British) and enact sensible laws to control inter member immigration gently. Who knows, in 50 years those laws would likely be lifted or redundant, but you just can't say, "You're now a member, now take a third of a million migrants each year". It's too much of a social and cultural shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 But more than 50% is not EU based immigration, we could stop that tomorrow if we wanted to, so ask your leaders why not? A lot of immigration has been driven by the middle eastern uprising which happened years ago (which we encouraged) i.e. syria. There is a big proposal on the table in the EU this year in how to control that, but we will now not have a voice at the table on this. The EU will reform, it would anyway regardless of our result. France is going right wing, they are not stupid. Unfortunately now we are at their whim if we adopt a Norwegian model and instead have to canvas most likely Ireland to take our concerns to a body which influences our trading rules. For me, the loss is the loss of voice, we actually have less control in the world economy than before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) But more than 50% is not EU based immigration, we could stop that tomorrow if we wanted to, so ask your leaders why not? A lot of immigration has been driven by the middle eastern uprising which happened years ago (which we encouraged) i.e. syria. There is a big proposal on the table in the EU this year in how to control that, but we will now not have a voice at the table on this. The EU will reform, it would anyway regardless of our result. France is going right wing, they are not stupid. Unfortunately now we are at their whim if we adopt a Norwegian model and instead have to canvas most likely Ireland to take our concerns to a body which influences our trading rules. For me, the loss is the loss of voice, we actually have less control in the world economy than before. I know half was non EU, but the people don't care where it comes from, or why it's happening, who is to blame, or Net or Gross. They just seem waves and waves of migrants flooding their communities and the politicians saying "We can't stop it, it's the EU", so, like the article said, when given the chance, the people unleashed their fury on the EU. And I have to disagree with the reform. I would love you to be right, I would even consider voting Remain as a Union similar to the USA is appealing, but I saw no signs of it. I saw a Left Wing Union, arrogantly push their Left Wing ideals onto a multi-political People across the Union. I saw nothing but arrogance from the EU leadership right up until today, the day after the Referendum. They still didn't get the message. The message from the EU should have been "this is shocking, and we have to take stock and discuss why millions of people feel this way" What we got was "**** you UK, if you're going, you're going now. You're the problem, not us!" Meanwhile, the people of Europe.... Edited June 25, 2016 by Juggalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Chris Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 For example, Britain is the 5th biggest economy in the world everyone says. Well that fact could be the basis of a strong argument for something or other. But if you don't accept the concept of interminable compound interest you might say actually Britain is the 5th most screwed up country in the world because of the debt it's carrying. 6th now, thanks to Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 It really annoys me to see people here talking about RACISM when referring to people born in other countries! You can't be racist for not "liking" a Romanian, you're xenophobic! In other news, after the reality check of yesterday and after the weekend I think a lot of people that voted leave without having a clue why they voted leave and who were mislead by Boris, Farage, Gisela, Gove etc will be feeling like this: https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/leave-voters-quite-worried-regret-backing-brexit/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 But the definition of a free market, is competition. I think if Cameron had delivered, in laymans terms, the benefits of the EU I appreciated the benefits of the eu, I.e the common market that we signed up to. But that sadly that is not what the eu is today, a bunch of beurocrats hell bent on red tape, not free trade and a few member states sucking the life out of it, with perhaps more to come. Far, far from the original concept. It could be so so much better, but its just all politics now, the common market is now just the lure to get you in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 UK's Credit Outlook Downgraded To 'Negative' http://news.sky.com/story/1717282/uks-credit-outlook-downgraded-to-negative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 :| 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) The propaganda machine rolls on, have a read of some of comments to the video Am i really supposed to put my faith in a vote from a student? Feel free to pop out in my town any given night of the week to understand a students mentality, i wouldnt trust them to sit the right way round on a toilet, let alone decide the fate of this country Edited June 25, 2016 by Jetpilot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glrnet Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Just noticed on the previous page a little "niggle" creeping in. Let's keep it civil please guys, this has generally been a great thread so far, let's keep it that way please. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 "This is how a political life ends: with a crash, not a whimper. David Cameron’s place in history is now assured. He is the man who took the United Kingdom out of the European Union. As we wait for the full impact of Thursday’s referendum to be felt, he may be remembered as the prime minister who presided over the beginning of the end of the United Kingdom, too. Scottish independence, defeated as an idea just two years ago, is back on the table.Cameron’s ten years as leader of the Conservative party and six as prime minister now boil down to these solitary facts. Nothing else matters; nothing else will be remembered. Cameron gambled everything on one roll of the dice and lost it all." http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/24/david-cameron-was-a-historic-and-disastrous-failure/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 This guy nails most of it. I don't agree with everything he says, but most of it I do. If you're not too Brexit fatigued, it's well worth 10 minutes http://www.theguardi...ity-westminster Going back to this briefly, because it's a good read. And plus I'm ill, and feel like a rant. It's the whole class war that is just the biggest piece of irony I've ever seen, regarding this referendum. Working class (eesch, I hate that term!) folks have always felt like The Man is keeping them down, and making the Rich richer, so they vote to remove the bunch of people who they say as faceless, sitting in their ivory towers in Brussels making rules that keep them in their place. However, by doing so they've handed more power and control right back to the EXACT people who actually are DIRECTLY making their lives hell: The UK government. They simply don't understand how politics works. They have a basic understanding of one vote for one person, but are unable to see the results of their actions. Now, I'm fairly right wing in my political beliefs (I know, shocking news) but I'm not incapable of seeing why the left wing are required for a balanced society. I can see that cut after cut and a crude but constant slashing of benefits hasn't worked for many people, and it's annoyed them. They feel that the system doesn't work, and they see the political parties like this: - Tories are evil money grabbing b*stards who just want the rich to be richer - Labour screwed up the economy last time, no way we can trust them again. And they took us to an illegal war! - Lib Dems seemed good, but were just puppets and look what happened last time we voted for that nice bloke on the TV. - UKIP are for me! They're working class! They hate the establishment too! That Farage guy sits in his office drinking whisky and smoking cigars, I want to do that too! So they do a protest vote. Okay, I get that, but what then happens is that the one party who is on your side more than anything, which is of course Labour, no longer have enough votes to keep the Tories in check or become any kind of reasonable opposition. UKIP was never likely to get enough votes to do anything useful, and the LD are the biggest bunch of crazies in politics (okay, maybe behind the Greens). Only one party truly stands up for the lowest in society, and that's Labour. That's who they should put their trust in, but they don't because they can't understand that politics isn't black and white. Hell, there has been MASSES of legislation to protect workers coming out of the EU in the last couple of decades, and now all that protection is gone. You've given all the power directly to the Evil Tories who want to destroy the NHS and pay bankers more and make quad amputee war vets go work in a chicken packing plant 60 hours a week. In terms of a self-defeating result, this is right up there with the best of them. What we really need now is for Corbyn to go, and David Milliband to make his move for party leader. He's a good man, he understands why being far Left isn't going to work any more, and if he can come up with a more credible financial plan for the country he may even get my vote next time. Boris will almost certainly be the next PM, and Milliband 2 is the only person on the Left I can see capable of standing up to the guy. Without a strong Labour party, we'll have another Tory government in 2020 too. What's clear as anything is that the votes to leave, if they were protest votes against faceless governments, have succeeded in entrenching the very values in politics the working class wanted to avoid. Leaving the EU may well be very good for the country in the long run, and I will do everything I can to make sure it is, but at the same time it's likely to have a directly negative effect on those at the bottom of the wage triangle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valy Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I never seen such a load of fabricated nonsense, how can those age groups even be relevant except to try and manipulate a viewpoint, 18-24, 6 year span, next group 25 year span, then 15 year span, then 25+ again.....and the leave campaign are being accused of being manipulated by what they read the accusation is granted epic facepalm for the out camp....just embarasing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 "This is how a political life ends: with a crash, not a whimper. David Cameron’s place in history is now assured. He is the man who took the United Kingdom out of the European Union. As we wait for the full impact of Thursday’s referendum to be felt, he may be remembered as the prime minister who presided over the beginning of the end of the United Kingdom, too. Scottish independence, defeated as an idea just two years ago, is back on the table.Cameron’s ten years as leader of the Conservative party and six as prime minister now boil down to these solitary facts. Nothing else matters; nothing else will be remembered. Cameron gambled everything on one roll of the dice and lost it all." http://foreignpolicy...strous-failure/ Bobbins. The people of this country were CALLING for a referendum on the EU membership, so he gave them exactly what they wanted. The Scottish wanted their say on staying part of the UK two years ago. If he hadn't given the people the chance, he'd have been called a liar. People of the UK have got exactly what they wished for: Is that not ultimately what a democracy should be? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 "The process of leaving the EU takes at least two years, so European immigrants will not have to flee across the channel immediately. After that first rush of panic—what will the world be like?—a deeper panic will follow, and it should. Brexit is the first major victory for the rising xenophobia that is sweeping the world, which has already overtaken the Republican party in America, and which has gathered significant support in almost every major democracy. We have to face up to an ugly truth about the world as it is: The hatred of difference is winning. ... Brexit is the first case since the Second World War of a major global economy choosing, of its own free will, to leave the international system. Already, the economic costs of that decision are staggering, and they will worsen. The Financial Times this morning reported that the proposed sale of Tata Steel and Tata Motors, Britain's largest steel producer and its sister car company, to foreign ownership has been stopped. The people in the towns where those steelworks function voted to leave the European Union by 57 to 43 percent. Now their employers, who will not be their employers for long, will have no access to the largest market at hand. This is what economic suicide looks like." http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a46143/why-brexit-bad-for-britain/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Have not commented on this thread before now but like I sense with most voters June & I fence sat with the head IN and the heart OUT. So we had a a little family get-to-gether last weekend and asked my two sons and their partners what they were doing and all four (in their twenties/thirties) said IN. And yes, I was following the poll on this thread and quite surprised to see the majority were for OUT, given that previous threads on this forum over the last 10 years I been a member have indicated most ZED owners were in their twenties and thirties. Unlike most others we know around our ages (sixties) who had indicated they were OUT we decided as this vote was about the future we would vote IN to support those closest to us and turn our grandchildren. Quite honestly I cannot see how anyone or group can predict what is going to happen now and not only was I de-motivated by the majority of political rantings leading to the vote, I was also certainly not impressed by the media bandwagon cherry-picking as to what was best. But then I found the differing thoughts by those in business did not help the understanding either. So we both voted in IN to support our family. Have to say the thought of Trump, Putin and Boris getting on and having their fingers on THE buttons did not help So, as I heard someone say on the radio, time for the British spirit to rise to the new 'Challenge' (I hate that PC term) but we really do need some political backbone to steer us to the better times the majority in this country have voted for. Oh, and am I the only one who could see Nicola Sturgeon rubbing her hands at the outcome to give greater cause for another referendum for the Scots? Maybe us Brits who didn't get our way on Thursday ought to start asking for another referendum on the EU but this time instead of just IN or OUT add a box that says IN, SUBJECT TO A BETTER DEAL FOR US BRITS. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-G- Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Sturgeon Oh, and am I the only one who could see Nicola Sturgeon rubbing her hands at the outcome to give greater cause for another referendum for the Scots? Yes, you were. 2 years ago the No camp insisted that the only way to safeguard EU membership was to vote no. Conversely, yesterdays result makes the opposite true. There were serious misgivings about how England would end up voting in an EU referendum post-indyref and these were laughed off as fanciful & ridiculous at the time by the same media now stuggling to comprehend what leaving the EU means for the UK. Well now you HAVE voted to leave and Scotland & Northern Ireland voted to stay - this is not a position anyone in Scotland wanted to be in but there is a clear-cut case for Scots to retain our place in Europe and thats exactly what she is doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I'd be happy for a second referendum as it's such an important decision. On condition the EU publically announce that something is seriously wrong there and commit to serious reforms. Junckers and his crew has to go, he's a lunatic and couldn't reform a tub of plasticine. And on condition all EU immigration to the UK stops for 5 years while we assimilate the millions we have, and give the services a chance to catch up. I also agree with Ekona. Labour need to sort their @*!# out, and fast. I voted Tory, but even I can see how dangerous it is not to have a strong counter balance to them...they do tend to go a bit too far sometimes...as do Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 https://petition.par...etitions/131215 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) https://petition.par...etitions/131215 About 1,000-1,500 people a minute are signing this. Pete EDIT, Wow!! just timed it for a minute, 3,200 new signatures. Edited June 25, 2016 by JetSet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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