andlid Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I would like to see UK leave actually just to see what happens since nobody really knows the effect it will have. Stay in the EU is a "safe" bet since you know already whats what. If you guys decide to leave I foresee madness on the financial markets, only due to nobody really know the ripple effects this might or might not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 Exactly, amongst other things. However it is clear Farage drew the ire of his own Leave team with that poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 How about you read about the Black Wednesday, eh? (not being patronising, promise!) Meanwhile, these bloody experts and researchers, what do they know, propaganda! "Scientists in the UK received €8.8bn (£6.8bn) in research funding from the EU from 2007-2013, according to the Royal Society - more than the €5.4bn (£4.1bn) we contributed over the same period. If the country votes to leave the EU no research grants will be revoked, so there will be no immediate cut in funding. However, scientists will be left in the dark about whether they should be applying for new funds from the European Research Council, which could pause research. Longer term, that €3.4bn (£2.6bn) gap in scientific funding would have to be met by the UK government to maintain investment in research and development." http://news.sky.com/...-survive-brexit All supposition and guesswork, no facts, so therefore, propaganda, you dont need to be a scientist to work that out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nievelc Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Apparently Corbin has admitted Britain would be unable to cap immigration if we remain. For or against immigration, being unable to control levels its not good imho Indeed. I'm fairly pro-immigration, but I'm certainly not up for a free for all. It's the elephant in the room, why does everyone want to come to the UK? If it is jobs then please crack on and come in, make a life here and and have a wonderful time if it is a free lunch on our tax payers money then no sir you need to have paid your dues to the system first. Free movement in out of our countries is great, if people are coming over for free health care or benefits we need to be compensated for this. My stance is the same with the parasitic inhabitants born and bread in Britain that survive on benefits on the back of tax from the UK workforce. Ship them out with the UN to give back to the countries we have taken from, any money saved should be invested into the sciences and the next generation. Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 Exactly, the 'scrounging' is an issue that needs resolving. Some previous stats put un-employment benefits estimate at around 4%-7% being spent on immigrants. So the issue is clearly the born and bred people who claim the majority. Obviously that will happen as the number of born and bred people in the UK far outweigh the number of immigrants in the UK. The benefits system here has been too kind for too long and lots of UK born people still take advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Yeah I agree nievelc and coldel. I'd just as happily ship the British scroungers off somewhere else as I would block immigrants that aren't intending to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payco Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I don't want our football team or nation to exit the Euros.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 4%-7% 4-7% of 159 billion is quite a lot buddy, whilst it may sound small as a %, actually ££££ it is not. And if they cant be more precise as nearly 100% leeway i.e 4 - 7, who knows what it would actually be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPhoboS Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 More "propaganda" "Mr Soros made a fortune betting against the pound on Black Wednesday in 1992, when Britain left the ERM, and said Brexit would cause even bigger disruption. Mr Soros said in his article that leaving the EU would see sterling fall by at least 15%, and possibly more than 20%, to below $1.15 from its current level of around $1.46. "The value of the pound would decline precipitously," he writes. "It would also have an immediate and dramatic impact on financial markets, investment, prices and jobs. "I would expect this devaluation to be bigger and also more disruptive than the 15% devaluation that occurred in September 1992, when I was fortunate enough to make a substantial profit for my hedge fund." http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-36582026 Do you have a single frigging idea about who that monstrosity is ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 The good old National Institute of Economic and Social Research eh? "Funding is recieved through commissioned research projects from a variety of sources: <snip>, the European Commision, <snip> Nah I'll pass. Nice try tho. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Do you have a single frigging idea about who that monstrosity is ? Absofrigginglutely. You have doubts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 The good old National Institute of Economic and Social Research eh? "Funding is recieved through commissioned research projects from a variety of sources: <snip>, the European Commision, <snip> Nah I'll pass. Nice try tho. Did you even watch the video before throwing a stone at me? It's inoffensive, just explains basic stuff about the single market 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Haha! Guilty as charged, no sound here currently and I've never found youtube subtitles up to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 4%-7% 4-7% of 159 billion is quite a lot buddy, whilst it may sound small as a %, actually ££££ it is not. And if they cant be more precise as nearly 100% leeway i.e 4 - 7, who knows what it would actually be. Yes it is a lot in terms of numbers, in the grand scheme of things immigrants are hardly bleeding the country dry. 95% of benefits spend goes to UK born citizens. Like I said before, if your car had its exhaust blowing, cat failed, leaking oil, blowing blue smoke and the passenger window didn't work, what would you be most concerned with - all the engine and exhaust issues or the broken window motor? Thats the 'scale' of the apparent problem and the cost of it in relative terms. Its the same with the quoted EU cost figure, the Leave campaign always quote it as a stand alone figure as most people believe its so much money. When in fact its less than 2% of country earnings per year. £9bn sounds a lot, but when you are earning £500bn+ is it really as huge a problem as everyone makes out? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Agreed, but we could be 4 - 7% better off if we controlled who came here, surely thats a better deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 The Remain campaign bring up something easy to understand that may have been partially funded by people with a vested interest in staying, and it's the end of the world. The Leave campaign bring up something easy to understand that may have been partially funded by people with a vested interest in leaving, and it's the end of the world. Honestly, the hypocrisy is astounding. EVERYTHING is biased to some extent. Hell, I take my personal viewpoint simply because if we leave it will directly affect me in my pocket, so why should anyone else be any different? You're not exactly going to bit the hand that feeds you What's important is that there is good info from *both* sides, it's just picking out the wheat from the chaff. To simply dismiss anything because it comes from an opposing view is foolish in the extreme. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 My 9yo daughter yesterday, after watching with me the debates and videos about BREXIT, EU, single market, regulations, financial impact, immigration etc: "So daddy, Britain being in EU is better, it's like you trying to sell your GTR only to the neighbours in our post code here, rather than actually finding a buyer in the whole of the UK, isn't it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Agreed, but we could be 4 - 7% better off if we controlled who came here, surely thats a better deal? Depends if the cost is a 2-5% drop in GDP, increased unemployment, benefits requirement etc etc as a fall out of exiting. In addition, if we exit, the existing 4-7% would still receive benefits unless they were subject to legislation that booted them out the country. Its also not cut and dry, many of those 4-7% are immigrants married to UK born people, so do you cut the support that is indirectly supporting UK people? Some of the 4-7% will also be people that would qualify under new rules to only let in people on points but just happen to be between work, do you cut that? This is my issue I have had since day 1, have the benefits of exiting been clearly outlined that they are worth the financial risk. The above really is a tiny pin prick in the countries finances that its simply not worth the risk. The same with the argument we would be able to spend all that EU money on so many things, in the end its a small reduction in energy costs and a 4% increase in NHS budget - again wont touch the sides. It's not in my mind worth the risk. Edited June 21, 2016 by coldel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) On the flip side, if we stay, who is to say that % wont increase, its swings and roundabouts isnt it, but as per my post yesterday, Corbin admitting to being unable to cap immigration is frankly shocking, i cannot see how that will benefit this country in any shape or form. The problem isnt now, its the future, which is what we are voting on! Edited June 21, 2016 by Jetpilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 We can't cap EU immigration. We can cap non-EU immigration. We could halve the net migration to this country overnight if we wanted to, but we don't want to do that. Migration is a tiny, tiny fraction of the problems we have in this country. It's almost non-existent in terms of importance. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 The issue is not immigration, its what you give away. Yes it could increase, but its up to us to work within the EU to ensure that we aren't seen as the soft touch of Europe (and to be honest thats not a Cameron thing, thats a failing of successive governments) which is what Cameron was debating with Europe a few months back and got the 'promise' of being able to cap and control payouts to new arrivals. Yes you could argue 'EU will reneg on it' but to be honest thats as speculative as most debate on here - the fact at this time is that promise is on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 We can't cap EU immigration. We can cap non-EU immigration. We could halve the net migration to this country overnight if we wanted to, but we don't want to do that. Migration is a tiny, tiny fraction of the problems we have in this country. It's almost non-existent in terms of importance. Even if immigration doubled next year (which it wont), you are looking at it going from 0.5% to 1% of total population - I find it quite bizarre that this is seen as such a huge issue, that we are willing to risk economic impacts which if they happen will take money from your pockets for the sake of a relatively small group of people coming into the country each year, many of which are well qualified and paying into the system. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Nobody mentions here about the money WASTED on wars in Afghanistan, Irak, Syria etc: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics?departments%5B%5D=ministry-of-defence Why not use the billions of GBP on domestic issues, rather than on interfering with other countries internal affairs, trying to make them democratic and failing miserably, while we have our military personnel coming back in metal coffins Britain's economy is great in comparison with other countries in Europe or anywhere else in the world, but we still have a lot of internal issues, way more costly than "immigration" the way it is seen today. How about the billions of GBP spent on the NHS IT system that failed? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24130684 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnH Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 How about the billions of GBP spent on the NHS IT system that failed? http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-24130684 I worked for 6 months on the bit they called spine, the backbone to the whole thing. Basically the NHS/government paid Company A to provide the service, they subcontracted the hardware and support to computer manufacturer B, who then hired contractors through companies C to F. So basically they just wanted bums on seats so that A, B, C...F all got their cut of the government money... I sat there for 6 months with nothing to do! Most boring job I ever had and no surprise it failed. Our motto was "the internet isn't big enough". Anyway, back on topic. A lot of the remain arguments seem to be regarding the economy, the fact that we're better off in the EU and staying in is the option with less risk. I'm not too worried about how the UK will do outside Europe, sure there may be a small recession but we'll likely be stronger in a few years. On the other hand, the percentage of EU GDP to world GDP has almost halved from 30% in 1980 to 16.5% now. France has riots and strikes pretty much daily, could the EU cope with a French bailout a la Greece? What about Spain or Italy? Sure, that might not happen, but to me it seems likelier than the UK failing to thrive on it's own outside the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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