RobPhoboS Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 What I have found from both sides en mass is a blatant lack of willingness to engage with the facts that are real and at hand. It's almost impossible to garner any 'facts' from this either way, no matter which way you swing. For example (note I do not want to talk about this) , if you look at migration stats, who has given them, how was it worked out and where are they from (as in what organisation gave these details) ? There is typically an agenda behind even the most simple sodding thing like the above (usually just simply follow the money) and hugely differing numbers etc. There is ALWAYS some form of bias selection when it comes to this stuff that we are all guilty of, simply as it strengthens our view, you can't change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nievelc Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 What I have found from both sides en mass is a blatant lack of willingness to engage with the facts that are real and at hand. It's almost impossible to garner any 'facts' from this either way, no matter which way you swing. For example (note I do not want to talk about this) , if you look at migration stats, who has given them, how was it worked out and where are they from (as in what organisation gave these details) ? There is typically an agenda behind even the most simple sodding thing like the above (usually just simply follow the money) and hugely differing numbers etc. There is ALWAYS some form of bias selection when it comes to this stuff that we are all guilty of, simply as it strengthens our view, you can't change that. Exactly figures can always be manipulated and sold to the audience\ consumer. But each man to their own, vote how you believe is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 Plenty of facts: We do not send £350m to the EU each week The money we send to the EU accounts for around 1% of our GDP 40% of our trade is with the EU (cant remember exact number but there or thereabouts) We are on the winning side in 88% of votes on EU legislation when it is put to a vote The Human Rights Act is not the same as the European Court of Human Rights - one is an act one is a body, the ECHR will always be there and be available to appeal to in or out I could go on, and on, and on. There are hundreds more facts which nobody seems to want to engage with but seem quite happy to mis-quote as a reason for leaving. All the above is true, it just requires people to engage with it, which many are not (and I am not saying that of people here generally on FB I see a lot of people getting it wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsexr Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 As far as i`m concerned the main reason to leave is simple. Whichever government we have in power they always manage to hide behind the EU for things that happen in this country. Lets leave and then we can hold them accountable for things that happen if we don`t like it. They will have no one to hide behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 As far as i`m concerned the main reason to leave is simple. Whichever government we have in power they always manage to hide behind the EU for things that happen in this country. Lets leave and then we can hold them accountable for things that happen if we don`t like it. They will have no one to hide behind. Immigration aside, what things do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nievelc Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 As far as i`m concerned the main reason to leave is simple. Whichever government we have in power they always manage to hide behind the EU for things that happen in this country. Lets leave and then we can hold them accountable for things that happen if we don`t like it. They will have no one to hide behind. That's a stance I had not considered before, it's a good point But my lack of trust for our government (Uni fees, over paid top end civil servants, and poor management of benefits) leaves me in despair as to the carnage they can cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy_Baton Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 I am 96. I remember how far we have come. I know what we stand to lose. For a second there, ithought we had a 96 year old 350z owner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy_Baton Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 My thoughts on the EU referendum are in the link below...I'm for leaving...just...but not for the usual right wing reasons. Mine is mainly based around the lack of democracy... https://www.facebook...154459536169384 Its a long old post mind...well done if you bother to read it! =D The majority of the country didn't want the Tories in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gball1973 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) SmoggyPaul, Can you explain your reason for thinking the EU is less democratic than our current UK govt? EU - European Council - 28 heads of state/governments (one for each country in the EU), all elected by the people of their home nations, most of which use proportional representation. European parliament - again, all MEPs are elected by constituents. Proportional representation again. European commission - not elected by the public, but are appointed by European parliament and the council of ministers. Council of Ministers - Ministers from each member state (elected as MEPs), also (with parliament) scrutinise the European commission. The council sets the priorities to the commission, the commission proposes legislation and budget, parliament negotiates laws with the council of ministers to make EU law and budget. All done by people we have elected. UK - House of Commons - 650 elected MPs, some of which are being investigated for possible election fraud, and a Tory govt in charge with 34% of the vote. House of Lords - 800+ UNELECTED people who claim £300 a day, just for showing up, and either make or break our laws. Edited June 16, 2016 by Gball1973 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) We are on the winning side in 88% of votes on EU legislation when it is put to a vote I believe that the results of the vote are only recorded if the legislation is passed, which would make that figure inaccurate. Edit: and also mean it's impossible to find out which way we voted on the things that were voted out. Edited June 16, 2016 by BobbyZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 We are on the winning side in 88% of votes on EU legislation when it is put to a vote I believe that the results of the vote are only recorded if the legislation is passed, which would make that figure inaccurate. Edit: and also mean it's impossible to find out which way we voted on the things that were voted out. Annoyingly I can't find the source for that now. Maybe someone knowledgable in these matters can confirm / refute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gball1973 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 BobbyZ, here you go http://www.votewatch.eu/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) ""Brexit: AA Gill argues for ‘In’ We all know what “getting our country back†means. It’s snorting a line of that most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.†It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?†Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity. We all know what “getting our country back†means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday†with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again. The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity. And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.†This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed. All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots. There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them. The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too farâ€. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits. Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side. Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?†When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?†Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place. Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’ You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.†This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom. Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated. The first “X†I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation. There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting. The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge. Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it? I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in." http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa-gill-argues-the-case-against-brexit-kmnp83zrt Edited June 17, 2016 by Adrian@TORQEN 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 "The Europe we need to embrace next Thursday is the Europe of the shared battle against left-wing and right-wing fascism; of the reformation; of the renaissance; of the enlightenment; of mass secularism; of liberal democracy. If we really want to protect the values that we in Britain claim to treasure, then we will best do so within a close-knit European family. That’s why I, a long-standing Eurosceptic, will be voting to remain." http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eurosceptic-eu-referendum-qatar-globalisation-vote-remain-a7085221.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Its getting close, and the remain camp are getting desperate. The last 6 polls all put Leave ahead: https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/ There will be some serious sour grapes if this is correct. I cant wait 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GappySmeg Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 We are on the winning side in 88% of votes on EU legislation when it is put to a vote I believe that the results of the vote are only recorded if the legislation is passed, which would make that figure inaccurate. Edit: and also mean it's impossible to find out which way we voted on the things that were voted out. Annoyingly I can't find the source for that now. Maybe someone knowledgable in these matters can confirm / refute. It is correct that voting figures are only collated and disseminated for legislation that has been PASSED. This little paragraph from an article from by Kings College London contains some figures, which seem to be the true voting figures: What we do know, though, from official EU voting records is that the British government has voted ‘No’ to EU proposals on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ to legislative proposals 2,466 times since 1999. In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side†95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%. Just pointing out how many times the UK government ‘lost’ is hence a misleading picture of what has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nievelc Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 I think your right, On the plus side the guests of the Jeremy Kyle show will probably have a televised apocalyptic celebration which will keep the benefits scroungers amused during the the mornings dose of super tenants. Silver linings and all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nievelc Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 That was bit harsh, sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 17, 2016 Author Share Posted June 17, 2016 Its definitely moving in favour of Leave, there is an undecided percentage of around 10% which the stay campaign will need to soak up most of to have a chance (undecideds often stick with the status quo) - it really depends on who actually does bother to turn out on the day that could actually swing it one way or the next. I am still voting In, I have yet to see a strong enough argument to exit where the benefits outweigh the risk. Although the stay campaign have made a complete ar$e of their campaign, the Leave campaigns 'plan' is pretty poor and something I could have written in 30 minutes about 3 months ago - they seem to be relying on the anti immigration feeling in the country rather than focusing on convincing people who have a genuine interest in all aspects of the country. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS8055 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 I have a rather jaded point of view on this subject as I live and work in Luxembourg (not on a permanent contract!) The consequences of a Brexit could potentially impact me quite heavily if I am not allowed to stay over here as a result. Worst part is that I am not entitled to vote!!! I moved out of the UK due to my father's job 18 years ago when i was 10, have been living abroad since then, except for my time at university between 2006 and 2010... which I thought would be my saving grace, but it turns out that because I did not register to vote while living back in the UK, I am not allowed to have a say in this. All I can do is hope that hope that those who want to vote to leave really have voted knowledgeably! and not because they want to "get the immigrants out" lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 ^^^ So what has been said by either side that makes you feel your position is in jeopardy if we leave? why should it change? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 17, 2016 Author Share Posted June 17, 2016 I think this has been a great thread (not because I started it!) in terms of hearing points of view - been kept on the whole very good natured. Interesting to hear how some people are voting one way or another on a single principle vs others who like myself are weighing up the pros and cons. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GappySmeg Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 All I can do is hope that hope that those who want to vote to leave really have voted knowledgeably! and not because they want to "get the immigrants out" lol Unfortunately, those I've spoken to seem to have bought in to every piece of bull-flop going, namely: - the EU system is un-democratic as it's members are not elected - the system is run by an un-elected "elite" - every law the UK proposes has been rejected (often citing this "72" figure, that was proved to be made-up several months ago) Both sides are guilty of this bull-crap... it's quite sickening really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 I moved out of the UK due to my father's job 18 years ago when i was 10, have been living abroad since then I appreciate your situation but I feel it would be unfair for someone who has spent the last 18yrs living outside of the country trying to dictate to those of us who still reside here how we should be living our lives. The same way I can imagine all the ex-pats in Spain and their ilk getting their knickers in a twist over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS8055 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 ^^^ So what has been said by either side that makes you feel your position is in jeopardy if we leave? why should it change? It's more of a case of uncertainty that worries me. Fact is that 77% of Luxembourg's workforce is foreign, many of which come from the UK. What worries me the most is that I do not have a permanent contract over here, and the resultant factors post-Brexit could mean that my life over here is over. This is not for sure, but it is far from out of the realms of the possibility! If a revised deal was on the cards should we choose to remain, I think it would be for the best. After all, we are what makes the EU great. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/03/luxembourg-britain-brexit-referendum-eu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts