Brexit 23rd June..?

[Mondo 300]

My biggest issue with the EU is the simple fact that it can override the UK's courts.

 

I cite the case of Abu Hamza. Here was an individual who contributed the square root of nothing to the UK - he didn't work, his family didn't work, they all simply took and took and took. And how did he repay this astonishing generosity...? By publicly venting his spleen about his hatred for the West in general and the UK in particular! By calling for hatred and murder on the streets of the UK and praising terrorist acts, both here and abroad.

 

The man was, quite simply, a drain on society and an absolute danger to this country and its citizens.

 

So, the Powers That Be decide that enough is enough and he is to be deported out of a country that he openly despises.

 

But! The EU Courts decide that we aren't allowed to do this because it'll breach his human rights. Never mind the terrorist bile he's spouted for a decade... never mind the call to arms he's issued to radical Muslims... never mind the fact that he was a complete parasite... no, we have to continue to tolerate his presence and his hatred because he might receive some rough justice back in his home country!

 

How can a court in a foreign country have the arbitrary right to tell the UK who it can and can not have living in it? How?!

 

I notice that Brussels didn't once offer to put him in one of their prisons. That would've got him out of here and also protected his "human rights" at the same time. But no, he just stayed here at their insistence and continued his hate campaigns, safe in the knowledge that we (as a country) were completely powerless to do anything whatsoever. It must have stunned him to the core when the deportation order finally came through and he got on that plane, but look at the hoops we had to jump through for that to happen!

 

Hamza wanted nothing more than open warfare on the "infidels" in a country and culture he had nothing but hatred and contempt for. He'd already plied his trade in Jordan, then fled here when his actions caught up with him, where he continued to be a literal menace to society! And yet some nameless, faceless entity in mainland Europe decides that we still have to suffer him in case his feelings are hurt...?!

 

Balls to that. That is my main issue with the EU. What is the point in the UK having any kind of justice system when it can so easily be overruled? We might as well defer every last thing to Brussels, if that's the case.

[coldel]

I agree he had to be deported, but the main issue wasn't that we couldn't deport him, the issue was to where he was being deported in that it was likely he would not receive a fair trial. I do not disagree that he was a hateful person, but then so are many of the extreme national front activists but I do not see anyone asking them to be removed? Or does having been born here, claiming benefits and screaming equally racial hatred not get as many papers sold...

 

The human rights act is not part of our law either, its simply a device to advise on law for countries in the european economy. For instance for the last 10 years they have said that prisoners must be able to vote.

 

...I cannot possibly vote on a macro economic policy based on a handful of people who I might object to, I have to take a bigger view than that.

Edited June 15, 2016 by coldel

[BobbyZ]

More than £30 billion has been wiped off the FTSE 100 Index as city fears grow over a potential Brexit.

 

The EU referendum takes place next Thursday, but fears of the eventual outcome is being felt globally.

 

Recent opinion polls on the referendum put the Leave campaign in the lead, while the Sun newspaper came out in favour of Brexit on Tuesday.

 

The latest plunge means more than £70 billion has been lost from the index since the start of the week.

 

http://www.itv.com/n...f-the-ftse-100/

 

In other words back to where it was last September , the FTSE fluctuates its hardly a crash

 

Indeed - as much as it's become a cliché, this is a scare tactic. The crash last August due to the China slowdown was far more severe, and we've already seen the FTSE at around 5500 in Feb this year (low as at yesterday was 5911, now bounced back slightly).

[Jetpilot]

Lets face it, the whole Abu Hamza thing was farcical to the extreme, along with many others who reside here at our expense and preach their hate, you just couldnt make it up its so unbelievable.

 

Sadly i cant blame the EU, i blame the government for letting him (and others like him) in the first place, you wouldnt let a known paedophile babysit your kids now would you

 

All these terror attacks over the last few years are by known terrorists, they are all flagged as such, but for some obscure reason they are allowed to fly around of to training camps etc and allowed back in, talk about making it easy for them.

[coldel]

There is a fine line between preaching because you have that allowance in the UK under its law, and then moving into inciting hatred and violence. We had to work hard as a country that when deporting him we were getting enough commitment from Jordan that he would not be tortured and receive a fair trial.

 

The European Court of Human Rights though is a completely non issue for the referendum. Its not actually part of the EU, like the Human Rights Act is. We can ditch the act, but we are still part of a 47 member state participation of the ECHR on which there is a British judge sitting when making decisions.

 

Even if we leave the EU, then next Abu Hamza to pop up can still appeal to the court in Strasbourg if they feel their human rights are being violated.

[Jetpilot]

Torture is the very minimum he deserved imho, he gave up his claim to have any human rights and thus should be treated as such imho, but that is a completely different subject

 

Hopefully the UK and EU if we remain will work harder to block these types entry and if they do get in, easier exportation, unfortunately as per Mondo says, its emotive subjects like these that prejudice voters decisions, right or wrongly, the gov and eu have made a rod for their own back.

[coldel]

Aye I totally agree mate, people will vote on emotion and not consider the risk. Honestly, I think the ride of emotion around immigration at this time and how poorly the Remain camp have campaigned I think the Leave campaign will win around 55/45, similar margins to the Scottish result.

[Juggalo]

Where are you getting the 8.5 billion in Net EU contributions? its around £100m. Even the leave campaign are only quoting £350 million. The EU then rebates £250 million back to the UK.

 

Math

 

Absolutey outstanding argument

 

£30Bn whipped off the FTSE over the last few days. Can you imagine how much it will fall if it actually goes through,

 

*Sigh*

 

In 2015 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £8.5 billion.

 

Source

 

8.5 billion / 52 Weeks = £163 million per week.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Juggalo

[Juggalo]

Absolutey outstanding argument

 

£30Bn whipped off the FTSE over the last few days. Can you imagine how much it will fall if it actually goes through,

 

Just had this from CityIndex:

 

======

 

Ahead of an expected increase in market volatility around the UK’s EU referendum on the 23rd of June, 2016 we’re writing to let you know about changes that will affect your account.

 

Changes to our margins

Our margin requirements will change temporarily to reflect the increased market uncertainty around the referendum. From the 19th June, 2016 these changes will include:

GBP related currency pairs and UK Indices will move to 3% base margin as a minimum

EUR related currency pairs and European and US Indices will move to 1% base rate margin as a minimum

UK 100 Equities will move to 8% base rate margin.

 

=======

 

If Britain leaves EU is going to be a disaster on the stock exchange, FTSE companies will have serious value wiped off the market, GBP vs any currency will simply dive, I'm predicting 1GBP = 1 USD... Lots of prices will go up for anything imported.

 

Sorry, but we won't sell our country out to protect your investments over the short to medium term. Democracy, Culture and self determination & Sovereignty trumps your portfolio every time. That's why the leave campaign is losing. You're all harping on about your money. I'm happy to pay more, as long as Britain regains it's independance.

Britain will adapt, it always has, and always will.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

 

Sorry, but we won't sell our country out to protect your investments over the short to medium term. Democracy, Culture and self determination & Sovereignty trumps your portfolio every time.

 

It's not the case buddy, I don't trade anymore, don't worry you're safe, independent and in control. You don't have to sell our country.

 

[coldel]

What is it that you feel impacts you so severely that you need to vote Leave out of interest? I wouldn't say we are undemocratic for instance?

 

What say, ten EU legislation, do you feel impact you negatively that you would want out for example?

[Adrian@TORQEN]

What is it that you feel impacts you so severely that you need to vote Leave out of interest? I wouldn't say we are undemocratic for instance?

 

What say, ten EU legislation, do you feel impact you negatively that you would want out for example?

 

Let me reply to this before Ekona does.

 

Eh.

[nievelc]

I'll be quite honest my views on the should I stay or should i go debate are simple and several posts here state fundamentally what I consider most important fact - no guarantees can be put in place in terms of policies, trade or whatever so I am taking a holistic view on the matter, with that said I choose to stay.

 

Power

I believe under no circumstance should any country should absolute power over itself, since 1951 none of the member countries have had war waged between them. People seem to think Britain will do better by itself, maybe financially after a few years that would be true but that's a narrow minded mentality. In my opinion we owe it to the rest of the world, India, Africa to name a couple to do our bit, if that means surrender £Millions to create budget for other members who are having it bad then so be it, what i do not agree with is that the other countries cannot just expect a free handout - I am looking at you Italy, Greece and Spain. Reforms for these countries need to happen to bring equilibrium to the pack but this is where the EU should be helping the phrase 'give a man a fish..' springs to mind

 

Immigration - Healthcare

My view on immigration is I am all for it - 100% open the borders to the world [i am bracing myself for a tw*at in the nuts here] Cameron hit the nail on the head when he said after only after 4 years of working in the UK you would be entitled to benefits, NHS care, the whole lot. Japan do it i believe it is 10 years there. Immigration is what has made this annoying little island more bearable. Watching guys on the Cameron vs Farage debate who's close descendants were clearly immigrants say there is an immigration problem sickens me, (I myself am an immigrant with my mum being half japanese and half italian, me being born in Scotland, raised in Germany) we do not have an immigration problem we have a problem with our benefit system. I can't watch benefits street because i get so furious watching the skyving little oiks prancing about and believing they are entitled to do so. They are the problem. Be it English, African, Martian or whatever these are the people that suffocate the budgets and take from what is most important in our civilisation - Education and Health. My personal opinion of these parasites is they should be recognised as a resource and used for overseas UK charity projects. I have a close friend who works with the UN in disaster relief and could do with some people to hand out rice.

 

Immigration - Jobs

For the argument 'They are taking our jobs' - If a position opens at my business we request CV's and have an interview process, after the applicants have been reviewed we make a decision and offer a position to the successful applicant. If you did not get the job it is because I or the team did not like your attitude or you were not up to scratch. Not because you were English.

 

Trade

This is where my opinion is grey, however the question is always "Do we get more being in or out" and i think the accurate answer from what i gather is "Probably" to both, one thing I did take from the debate which cannot be ignored is when it comes to trading with China, India, Russia, US, etc an agreement with 28 countries to 1 can certainly give us more leverage. With that said I am not money driven in any way, and have always made a measure of wealth with a few questions -

 

1. Do you have a house?

2. Do you have a car?

3. If the washing machine breaks can you afford to replace it without worrying?

 

If you answer yes to all 3 then your in a good position, add some friends, good health, holiday and opportunity and you become full circle happy.

 

So in a nutshell should we exit? No in my opinion If we cannot be trusted to sort out our own Education, Health and benefits system then why should we trust the absolute power of the UK to a single house of politicians?

Would you trust absolute power to Boris or Farage? Cameron may be a pig shagging excuse of a bovril dot but I have more trust in him with the EU then the alternative solution.

Edited June 15, 2016 by nievelc

[Gball1973]

I'm with Adrian, Dan, Graham and Colin on this one. Remain.

 

The leave campaign have lied from day one about the annual £13bn in taxes sent to the EU - remember around £4.5bn never even goes (in the form of rebates) which is earmarked for the likes of farming, research & development, education and regional aid (used to boost the economies of the poor, remote or under populated areas - e.g. Germany spends theirs on eastern Germany). ANY promise that £350m a week that goes to the EU could fund a "a new hospital a week" amongst the other thing they are saying would mean less money for the industries mentioned above. If we were to leave, IMHO, a BoJo(most likely to take over from dodgy Dave) lead Govt would not use that money responsibly and any subsidies mentioned above would most likely be revoked - to what extent, I don't know, but I don't want to find out.

 

As far as the EU as a governing body goes, yes it's not perfect, but please show me one that is? I have seen a lot of posting here and other sites that the EU is "un-democratic", " we didn't vote for them" and "take our democracy back" and other similar posts. There seems to be a lot of people have forgotten that the EU is controlled by the European Council which comprises 28 ELECTED heads of state or government (one for each member state, in the case of the UK David Cameron) and that most of those countries vote for their leader by proportional representation style voting - much fairer than the current UK voting system - Tory Govt with 34% anyone? Not just that, but we also have (as part of the EU and directly elected by us) the European parliament who along with the council of ministers (again, from each member state) appoint and scrutinise the (unelected by the public) European commission (again, one from each member state). So, as far as I can see on this point, we do have a voice via our elected officials, but, as with our Westminster officials, only if they choose to voice our issues. Compare that to the UKs 800+ UNELECTED House of Lords (the largest unelected legislative chamber in the world), our unelected head of state, our unelected central bank. Leaving would just hand more power to a government accused of cheating their way into power - makes no sense to me.

 

Trade will continue one way or another, all be it (most likely) at a loss if we leave. But, again something people are overlooking - if 44% of our international trade is with the EU, where is the other 56% going? Yup, that's right, the rest of the world. If British businesses are still going to manufacture for the EU countries, they will have to make sure their products comply with EU standards, but the UK will no longer have any say in how these regulations are applied. Who will say no to Trump (god help us all) if he wins and pushes harder for TTIP after a leave vote? BoJo? Various EU states have vowed to veto TTIP. Who would keep the tories in check? Remember that 1)the tories have said that the NHS will not be exempted from it, and we currently have a health minister who co-authored a book about privatising it. Not just that, it would allow corporations (including banks) to sue a government if their profits are at risk (tax dodging anyone - if you think it's bad now......). This could lead to energy companies enforcing fracking in YOUR area, it also WOULD lead to a drop in standards - let's say an American food company wants to set up a new location in Wales, do you think that in a fully independent Britain would be allowed, under TTIP, to make that company set up with British/European safety/health standards? It would interfere with their profits buying that expensive PPE for 400+ employees or those machine guards that cost ££££ for the machine that wee Johnny lost his hand in. Everything I've read on TTIP strongly suggests that if this goes through, we (assuming we have higher standards) would have to drop our standards to those outwith the EU. Sorry, but I'm quite proud of the higher standards of production, safety, and rights we have within the EU.

 

What would happen to workers rights if a leave vote happens? Currently, we have a lot including paid holidays, maternity/paternity leave etc. What happens there (especially combined with TTIP)? Notice period? Minimum wage? Working time directive? I certainly wouldn't want to work for a company that can make you work a potential 60+ hours a week for less, with less rights.

 

The only point (and only to a degree) I can agree with for leaving is certain issues surrounding immigration, but (latest govt figures) as less than 5% of the population are immigrants, it doesn't worry me at all.

[nievelc]

Torture is the very minimum he deserved imho,

 

Tie his feet together and put itchy powder on his groin?

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by nievelc

[Sargara]

Power

I believe under no circumstance should any country should absolute power over itself,

 

Not sure any survivors of WW2 would like that stance but each to their own

 

In my opinion we owe it to the rest of the world, India, Africa to name a couple to do our bit, if that means surrender £Millions to create budget for other members who are having it bad then so be it

 

Neither of which are in the EU and impacted by us leaving?

 

][/b]

My view on immigration is I am all for it - 100% open the borders to the world [i am bracing myself for a tw*at in the nuts here] Cameron hit the nail on the head when he said after only after 4 years of working in the UK you would be entitled to benefits, NHS care, the whole lot.

 

Except that's not how it works. If you are in the EU you can turn up and claim all those benefits. It works both ways of course, ex-pats can do similar I'm sure.

 

We do not have an immigration problem we have a problem with our benefit system.

 

Depending on where you are fortunate enough to live, perhaps. There are certainly some areas worse impacted than others however.

 

][/b]If a position opens at my business we request CV's and have an interview process, after the applicants have been reviewed we make a decision and offer a position to the successful applicant. If you did not get the job it is because I or the team did not like your attitude or you were not up to scratch. Not because you were English.

 

Which massively depends on the field of work. A lot of the industries impacted are manual labour, farm, factory etc. Why pay minimum wage/overtime when you can pay cash in hand to someone else on the sly.

 

][/b]one thing I did take from the debate which cannot be ignored is when it comes to trading with China, India, Russia, US, etc an agreement with 28 countries to 1 can certainly give us more leverage.

 

Which we cant do being part of the EU fully, the EU commission does it on our behalf.

[nievelc]

Power

I believe under no circumstance should any country should absolute power over itself,

 

Not sure any survivors of WW2 would like that stance but each to their own -

 

Remember they were fighting from being oppressed by a regime that tried to exterminate an entire religion and anything that did not fit their liking, if WW1/WW2 has proven anything it is that the member states need to work together to prevent War, Germany was oppressed and Hitler seemed to be the solution. Prevention is better than cure.

 

In my opinion we owe it to the rest of the world, India, Africa to name a couple to do our bit, if that means surrender £Millions to create budget for other members who are having it bad then so be it

 

Neither of which are in the EU and impacted by us leaving?

 

Correct, however if you read up we slaughtered thousands in these countries in a sense we were their Nazis, my point is the UK is one of the most successful countries in the EU, we owe it to give back,

 

My view on immigration is I am all for it - 100% open the borders to the world [i am bracing myself for a tw*at in the nuts here] Cameron hit the nail on the head when he said after only after 4 years of working in the UK you would be entitled to benefits, NHS care, the whole lot.

 

Except that's not how it works. If you are in the EU you can turn up and claim all those benefits. It works both ways of course, ex-pats can do similar I'm sure.

 

Correct again but my point again is the benefits system is the problem, not the immigration. People should be able to come to the UK to work.

 

We do not have an immigration problem we have a problem with our benefit system.

 

Depending on where you are fortunate enough to live, perhaps. There are certainly some areas worse impacted than others however.

 

I lived in Croydon for 25 years, my gym was in west Croydon as was my local supermarket. I work in Birmingham 2/4 weeks a month, in my company I work with 2x Sri Lankan's, 1x Sweedish, 1x Slovakian, 1x African and 6x from the UK. again to reiterate my point - people that put in to the system and add to the country or transfer to further Education are what we need.

 

If a position opens at my business we request CV's and have an interview process, after the applicants have been reviewed we make a decision and offer a position to the successful applicant. If you did not get the job it is because I or the team did not like your attitude or you were not up to scratch. Not because you were English.

 

Which massively depends on the field of work. A lot of the industries impacted are manual labour, farm, factory etc. Why pay minimum wage/overtime when you can pay cash in hand to someone else on the sly.

 

"A national minimum wage" is this not because of the EU, some countries don't have it but have a bargain agreement instead from what i understand.

 

one thing I did take from the debate which cannot be ignored is when it comes to trading with China, India, Russia, US, etc an agreement with 28 countries to 1 can certainly give us more leverage.

 

Which we cant do being part of the EU fully, the EU commission does it on our behalf.

 

And we would create better trade agreements because...

And if we did how would this weigh up against the financial and ethical reasons to stay.

 

 

On a separate note, i just took the 3.30 trip to trap 2 and caught up wit FB - It's also been an eye opener to hear peoples opinions and views, the level of racism in this country is absolutely disgusting. (I am not suggesting Sargara is one!) but it is mind blowing.

[coldel]

I know, the amount of stuff rehashed on Facebook by people that read the Mirror etc is astonishing, blindly believing anything they see on social media or in the tabloids. People literally putting no thought into this at all, when its actually a more important vote than last years general election in my view.

 

What I think joe public struggle mostly with is that sums like £200m a week to the EU sound to them like a lot of money, which of course it is, but in the context of trade and macro economics its small change. Its this coupled with a lack of understanding of the real size of immigration benefits payments (something like 95% of benefits payments go to native UK people) when they read headline stories about 'this guy comes here and claims' as being representative of every person of that origin that is causing a lot of Leave voting.

[Randy_Baton]

- Removal of the 5% VAT charge on energy

 

That's where all the money will be going, in terms of money back in your pocket it will be on average a £70 a year reduction in your energy bills (using OFGEMs estimate on energy bills average in the UK being £1400 as a rough guideline)

 

Where did you get that Ofgem figure from? Just interested as I work in Energy Pricing.

 

The average bill on standard variable tariffs is £1100-1200 (depending on payment type) but ~40 % of customers are on cheap fixes which are currently around £750 so the average should be somewhere in between.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/infographic-bills-prices-and-profits

 

I'm no VAT expert but think most of the VAT goes to HMRC and not the EU. Couldn't find any figures on this though. It sounds like total VAT collected is part of an formula that determines what the UK's total contribution is.

 

The current and previous governments have asked the energy industry to investigate how a VAT rebate would work .I.e charge VAT as normal but then have the government rebate it back to customers. You all received an £12 electricity rebate last year as the government decided to give back some of what that charged for some of the non energy obligations they levy on suppliers. So it is doable within the EU restrictions.

 

If the government really wanted to cut bills they'd remove the social/environmental obligations from bills and recover them in general taxation. These add up to 7.4% of a bill and rising and could be removed without much red tape.

[Bockaaarck]

"It is helpful to be old, for in my lifetime I have seen world population increase threefold; a stable seasonal climate become wildly unstable with drought, forest fires and floods; the pollution by humanity of the planet’s earth, air and waters to a stage where all life is threatened; and violence become a permanent, continuous tragedy in a world of great uncertainty.

 

The only stable community in this universal upheaval has been the European Union, formed from the wreckage of a continent for which I and millions of others fought six years of war. I write as a former airman, having flown well over 2,000 hours against three despotic enemy nations. That victory for the democracies has given Europe 70 years of peace and security in a widely unstable world. The “leave†chancers are campaigning to abandon this steady progress, citing values false or irrelevant, while they have no plan of what to do after jumping ship.

 

If the nation should fall for this deceit I can only conclude that the lives of my comrades – Irish, Scots, Welsh and English – were lost in vain. They will be rattling their bones, wherever in the world they fell, at the loss of the beliefs for which they fought.

 

Britain in Europe will enhance progress to higher values in the greater world; Britain out means a return to the early-20th-century chaos of warring states against each other.

 

I am 96. I remember how far we have come. I know what we stand to lose."

 

Franklin Medhurst, DFC (RAF 1939-46) Carlton, County Durham

[Adrian@TORQEN]

:lol:

 

"A Brexit survival guide: freeze your cheese and holiday in Albania

A land without Polish plumbers, the end of the Calais booze trip and no more need to learn tricky foreign languages … Welcome to post-EU Britain

 

...

 

Enjoy the good old British banger

For too long, eurocrats have been messing with our sausages, haven’t they? Yes, they have. The Sun once complained that those damned continentals interfered with our freeborn British practice of allowing a certain amount of fat to count as meat in sausages. No more. Let rampant colon cancer and type 2 diabetes be the expressions of Britain’s newly independent spirit.

 

...

 

Forget farming, start fishing

You’re a farmer whose business model has been predicated on receiving billions in EU agricultural subsidies while you lean on gates chewing grass and looking into the middle distance. It’s time to retrain. Go to your library and borrow a singalong sea shanty CD. That’ll be your first step in your new career. If the UK takes control of its waters and starts stopping factory ships from the continent depleting fish stocks, you see, fishing could well become a lucrative profession.

 

...

 

Learn the joy of waiting

Remember those happy days when you strolled through EU airports past a long queue of loser non-EU citizens waiting for immigration officials to give them cavity searches and/or unpleasant frownings? Thanks to Brexit, you’ll be in that queue soon. What to do? Catch up on your reading while you wait. What seem to be ludicrously big novels – Hanya Yanagihara’s A Little Life, Donna Tartt’s The Goldfinch, Elena Ferrante’s quartet, that sextet of autobiographical novels by that Norwegian – will be perfect company while you wait for hours to be patronised by snooty French immigration officials.

 

...

 

Fall in love with the good old British seaside

Remember when you used to go to that lovely sun-drenched island in some blissful EU country? Those days are over. Get used to the sand in your eyes, the chip fat in your hair, getting dive bombed by gulls, hypothermia if you put a toe in the sea, and four hours of stationary traffic on the M6 on the way home."

 

http://gu.com/p/4y46k/fb

Edited June 16, 2016 by Adrian@TORQEN

[SmoggyPauly]

My thoughts on the EU referendum are in the link below...I'm for leaving...just...but not for the usual right wing reasons. Mine is mainly based around the lack of democracy...

 

https://www.facebook.com/Tee55ider/posts/10154459536169384

 

Its a long old post mind...well done if you bother to read it! =D

[RobPhoboS]

The funny thing I've noticed about this, bare in mind it's not happened before with elections, is that the more I see people on social media go on about 'in' - I've unfollowed/unfriended them.

I can't remember doing things like this before, it's quite refreshing having a clean up.

[coldel]

So in effect you gets all the benefits but because you do not understand how the EU works and subsequently believe you cannot affect it you are voting out, I think?

[coldel]

The funny thing I've noticed about this, bare in mind it's not happened before with elections, is that the more I see people on social media go on about 'in' - I've unfollowed/unfriended them.

I can't remember doing things like this before, it's quite refreshing having a clean up.

 

I'm actually re-classifying people - people that start any comment with 'Ive heard that...' are lazy and have no inclination to find out the facts, people that mention '£350m per week would buy..." clearly have tried a bit but not very hard to look into it and are voting out before they have listened to anything, others that quote celebs or spurious business people as a reason for voting one way or the other are clearly bonkers!

 

What I have found from both sides en mass is a blatant lack of willingness to engage with the facts that are real and at hand. This has become so much a debate about 'well I saw this Syrian hit a woman the other day' as a basis for voting out presuming that we can somehow just shut up shop its become pretty pointless trying to debate the issues.