Jewell Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Leave, cause a bit of a storm, investors play it safe and don't move assets around until they know it's not as bad as they thought. UK lives happily ever after. We have the 5th biggest economy, we don't need to be part of any club. I can't wait to leave. Do we have the 5th biggest economy because we are part of the biggest trading club though? No, we had the biggest trading economy in the world before that club started fella. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewell Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 My grand father and many other highly educated, "in the know" ambassadors of business have been wanting to leave the EU for over 20 years. He wrote this book in 2000! https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ratchet-Cool-Look-European-Union/dp/0953469719/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464891907&sr=1-1 http://www.junepress.com/book.asp?BID=649 My grandfather was an architect and then retrained to be a corporate lawyer, my uncle was the director of the whole of Asia for Jones-Lang-Lasalle, the biggest Skyscraper property owners in the world and is now head financial advisor to the richest man in the world. They both want out. You will find anyone that knows about business that consults for others, so are not trying to a sell a product from their own business/group, want out of the UK. Anyone that has a business that relies heavily on world trade, which will obviously slow once we leave but will eventually return to normal, votes to stay. They are voting for their own financial agenda, not for the British public. So, as always, people are getting paid by these big corporate companies to write about the positives of staying in(If I pay you £1 million to write this paper about the positives of staying, will you do it? Yes I will). This also happened when the boundaries of banks borrowing the publics money for riskier trading was voted in(banks were only allowed to borrow 2.5 times of their asset worth, then it went up to 8 times) and within 10 years, we had the worlds biggest financial collapse costing trillions. British and American economic professors were paid silly money to write papers about how good that move would be and how the risk would be controlled, these people are professors who teach economics and they all got it wrong. Vote in all you want but LISTEN to the people who actually know, don't read the papers, LISTEN to people who work for themselves as advisor's that want the greater good to be told, not the greed that has strangled this world to a point where a trade in London or America, can cost the jobs of thousands of poor people on the other side of the world. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 I agree on some points Jewell especially about papers printing what sells, but on many others its quite factually incorrect. The UK was not the biggest economy in 1970 pre-EU, both the US and USSR were bigger along with other European economies which were also bigger. If you read anything about the union at that point we were well known as the 'sick-man' of Europe. The colonies our trade was linked with were shrinking as Germany was recovering again to become an economic powerhouse. It made no sense to continue preferring to colonial trading when that was decreasing and Euro trade was flying - and as we see today, the EU bloc is the biggest trading bloc in the world. Of course business leaders want to stay, if it benefits them financially...why would you want to leave and potentially end up negatively impacting economic growth by damaging the growth of your business, which employees people, creates trade and ensures the country stays on a path of growth. Plenty of business leaders, of very influential companies, want to stay - its just nonsense I am afraid to think that they are just saying that for their own personal financial gain. The idea that ALL business ambassadors/leaders want to leave is quite frankly fantasy land... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) This is an interesting argument that suggests that the economy would actually be better off outside the EU: http://www.telegraph...estroys-the-ec/ Apart from two major points: If the EU are so @*!# at getting trade agreements, how is an isolated UK going to fare? Isolated from who? We're voting to leave the EU, not move to Ganymede. Edited June 2, 2016 by Juggalo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 This is an interesting argument that suggests that the economy would actually be better off outside the EU: http://www.telegraph...estroys-the-ec/ Apart from two major points: If the EU are so @*!# at getting trade agreements, how is an isolated UK going to fare? Isolated from who? We're voting to leave the EU, not move to Ganymede. ...and whats wrong with Ganymede! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floydbax Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_largest_historical_GDP Ahem, considering we are a small rainy rock off the coast of NE Europe we have consistently punched above our weight economically, both in and out of Europe. The Gerrman economy was underwritten by the allied victors after WW2. Our trade suffered more in the 70's due to it's own stagnation when the Japanese industry (also propped up by the allies after WW2) which was more modern and was trading within UK without competitive import taxation due to agreements made by the allies with consideration towards rebuilding the defeated nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I find arguing who has the most intelligent people voting on there side unhelpful same as saying uneducated people vote to leave because they know no better. for some this is a vote from the heart, for others a vote with the head. this applies to both sides. to claim either one has the moral or academic high ground is rubbish. neither side can forecast beyond 6 months anything beyond that is based on guess work and hypotheticals. both leave and stay hold their risks some more short term than others. for the remain camp the risks are less likely in the short term but not impossible in the future. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 https://en.wikipedia..._historical_GDP Ahem, considering we are a small rainy rock off the coast of NE Europe we have consistently punched above our weight economically, both in and out of Europe. The Gerrman economy was underwritten by the allied victors after WW2. Our trade suffered more in the 70's due to it's own stagnation when the Japanese industry (also propped up by the allies after WW2) which was more modern and was trading within UK without competitive import taxation due to agreements made by the allies with consideration towards rebuilding the defeated nations. ...and like I said, we were not the largest trading country in the world as mentioned by Jewell. We were slipping at this point (actually read some of the links on wiki it will take you through this) and if we didn't join we would have been in serious trouble. Our trade prowess goes all the way back hundreds of years to the fact we were the king of the seas, moving trade globally utilising our expert seamanship. Its a bit more than that now, we had to move with the times in the 1970s and most experts agree that move back then ensured our position (although appreciate this is subjective) by being aligned with the bigger movers in the world economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 agree with coldel, prior to joining the EEC we were facing the possibility of doing a Greece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floydbax Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 . read some of the links on wiki it will take you through this - I was there, I'm pretty old I remember it well, my father and grandfather were CEO's of the biggest car seat manufacturing business in the country until the influx of cheap reliable Japanese cars killed off the British car industry at the time. Trust me I know my stuff, an OND in Travel and Tourism Business Studies, an HND in European Business Studies and a degree in Business and Finance gained after returning to education after 10 years out in the workplace, 35 years ago mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 https://en.wikipedia..._historical_GDP The Gerrman economy was underwritten by the allied victors after WW2. By the USA through the Marshal Plan which ended in 1952. U.K received almost 26% of the money allocated, France 18% and West Germany 11%. If you look at the former Iron Curtain countries then it comes as no surprise to me at least that East Germany had the highest standard of living, even higher than their masters in The Soviet Union. Germans just seem to be better than us when it comes to economics sorry to say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT350 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I just want to be happy. And to see happy people. Regardless of nationality, age, sex (yes please) and so forth. I think of more of us were happy we wouldn't care about such things. Too much time and misery on our hands. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) . until the influx of cheap reliable Japanese cars killed off the British car industry at the time. There's a lot more to it than that. Crappy cars like the Ital, Allegro, Princess, Maxi and strikes at car plants every few days were a big factor and when British Leyland did come up witjh a decent design like the Triumph Stag they screwed it up by putting in an engine that needed a rebuild every 30k. Pete Edited June 2, 2016 by JetSet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran O'Quick Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I find arguing who has the most intelligent people voting on there side unhelpful same as saying uneducated people vote to leave because they know no better. for some this is a vote from the heart, for others a vote with the head. this applies to both sides. to claim either one has the moral or academic high ground is rubbish. neither side can forecast beyond 6 months anything beyond that is based on guess work and hypotheticals. both leave and stay hold their risks some more short term than others. for the remain camp the risks are less likely in the short term but not impossible in the future. Exactly. It's the blatant lies both sides are flinging about that is so depressing. But a politician who admits he doesn't know everything would be destroyed. I can't be sure about what will happen or if I'm getting played by someone. It seems at times that the old classic reverse psychology is being used. All the big banks, the City, want to stay in, they claim. That's enough to make me want to vote out. But maybe they actually really want Out because Yurp wants to bring in a transaction tax... Who the hell really knows? A lot of people peddle financial doom but haven't we just had a huge crash with Europe at the helm? And instead of protecting the people they bailed out the financiers? They let the thieves keep their cash and handed the bill to law-abiding people of the southern states and their descendants? And let countries with better credit ratings do some insidious usury by borrowing cheap, lending to the PIGS and calling it a bail-out? Nice club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Who the hell really knows? A lot of people peddle financial doom but haven't we just had a huge crash with Europe at the helm? And instead of protecting the people they bailed out the financiers? They let the thieves keep their cash and handed the bill to law-abiding people of the southern states and their descendants? And let countries with better credit ratings do some insidious usury by borrowing cheap, lending to the PIGS and calling it a bail-out? It genuinely still surprises me that people don't realise just what would've happened if we'd not bailed those banks out. Actually not surprises, terrifies. They're not the bad guys. Despite not helping the problem (along with greedy stupid people borrowing more than they could afford), the bankers also happen to be the only people who could really get things sorted again too. But hey, that's another thread altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran O'Quick Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) No problem nationalising the banks- I'm all for that. It was the screwing over the small shareholders and paying out other professional investors that was wrong.. And as for greedy stupid people - fair enough that buy-to-let folk get stung. But not people trying to buy a decent home for their family in a safe area. Edited June 2, 2016 by Kieran O'Quick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 I find arguing who has the most intelligent people voting on there side unhelpful same as saying uneducated people vote to leave because they know no better. for some this is a vote from the heart, for others a vote with the head. this applies to both sides. to claim either one has the moral or academic high ground is rubbish. neither side can forecast beyond 6 months anything beyond that is based on guess work and hypotheticals. both leave and stay hold their risks some more short term than others. for the remain camp the risks are less likely in the short term but not impossible in the future. Exactly. It's the blatant lies both sides are flinging about that is so depressing. But a politician who admits he doesn't know everything would be destroyed. I can't be sure about what will happen or if I'm getting played by someone. It seems at times that the old classic reverse psychology is being used. All the big banks, the City, want to stay in, they claim. That's enough to make me want to vote out. But maybe they actually really want Out because Yurp wants to bring in a transaction tax... Who the hell really knows? A lot of people peddle financial doom but haven't we just had a huge crash with Europe at the helm? And instead of protecting the people they bailed out the financiers? They let the thieves keep their cash and handed the bill to law-abiding people of the southern states and their descendants? And let countries with better credit ratings do some insidious usury by borrowing cheap, lending to the PIGS and calling it a bail-out? Nice club. It was a global crash that actually started in the US...the EU never created the recession. In terms of the banks, they are what essentially drives the majority of growth and the economy in the UK, we could have let them just fall to pieces, and then watched our ranking in the top 5 or 6 economies of the world slide out in the 20s or 30s...but hey people do not stop to really try and understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran O'Quick Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 It was a global crash that actually started in the US...the EU never created the recession. In terms of the banks, they are what essentially drives the majority of growth and the economy in the UK, we could have let them just fall to pieces, and then watched our ranking in the top 5 or 6 economies of the world slide out in the 20s or 30s...but hey people do not stop to really try and understand that. You can't resist the supercilious lines can you? Could you be civil please? Growth is all on paper. The way I see it is we had a chance to crash the false economy or punt it down the road and stick it on a card. We postponed the pain for greater pain later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 It was a global crash that actually started in the US...the EU never created the recession. In terms of the banks, they are what essentially drives the majority of growth and the economy in the UK, we could have let them just fall to pieces, and then watched our ranking in the top 5 or 6 economies of the world slide out in the 20s or 30s...but hey people do not stop to really try and understand that. You can't resist the supercilious lines can you? Could you be civil please? Growth is all on paper. The way I see it is we had a chance to crash the false economy or punt it down the road and stick it on a card. We postponed the pain for greater pain later. No superiority complex here, all very civil. Take it how you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 It was the lack of control put in place by our politicians over time that allowed so much damage to happen here when it spread. there could and should have bee nbetter protocols in place to stop them gambling with as much as they did at one time. the need to keep a certain amount in reserve etc would have meant that it still would have hit and hurt but less bail out would have been needed. but you can thank our genius chancellor mr brown for that balls up. he was happy to deregulate the banking industry and leave them to it playing fast and loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT350 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I asked a Polish guy (still friends with him 9 years later) what he thought of England. He thought our women were ugly, English men were stupid, our food disgusting, our housing below standard and that our weather was the worst he'd ever seen. We laughed about it. I said why not go home? In the context of if he hated it so much. He was saving for, and has since, bought a house in Poland. He was here alone, his wife and child back home. It's admirable that he could stay for so long in sub standard living conditions and without his family. I miss him. We used to have a good belly laugh regularly and hit the gym together at 6am every morning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floydbax Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 . until the influx of cheap reliable Japanese cars killed off the British car industry at the time. There's a lot more to it than that. Crappy cars like the Ital, Allegro, Princess, Maxi and strikes at car plants every few days were a big factor and when British Leyland did come up witjh a decent design like the Triumph Stag they screwed it up by putting in an engine that needed a rebuild every 30k. Pete Our trade suffered more in the 70's due to it's own stagnation when the Japanese industry (also propped up by the allies after WW2) which was more modern and was trading within UK without competitive import taxation due to agreements made by the allies with consideration towards rebuilding the defeated nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 [banks] They're not the bad guys. Dude, respect to you, but you are clearly smoking far too much crack if you believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Not at all, I just have a realistic view of the world. Do you genuinely believe that all banks are evil? And that everyone working for them is evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 What does 'banks' mean, who are you referring to? Banking has multiple forms, its probably more complex than I can get to grips with. In its simplest form, wasnt the recession caused by over lending to people being greedy and demanding more than they could afford...in simple terms, plenty of the public were responsible for becoming bad debtors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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