Brexit 23rd June..?

[Kieran O'Quick]

 

 

In addition, I do seem some people drinking regularly who I would be happy to stake money on are not making business deals, on a team lunch or birthday drinks and are in fact scroungers...

 

Trust me, the guys I'm talking about are just as dodgy as the local scroungers/opportunists. I'll say it again - where I am, there is a stupid number of ropey characters appearing daily. Tell me what is positive in that? And why are our future foreign-relations possibly dependent on such a situation?

[rtbiscuit]

very interesting reading

 

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/europe-ref-fed-up-vote/index.html

 

Its a long article, but it puts across some of the uncertainity of staying in that worries me about remaining in Europe. I worry that staying in is like buying a ticket for the titanic after finding out its already hit the iceberg.

[coldel]

The completely unbiased telegraph? Newspapers report stuff that will drive up readership, they do not publish the facts. I will browse this tomorrow out of interest...but generally try to avoid biased reporting in dailies.

[TT350]

Ah, so all in your head then, gotcha.

 

 

 

Yep. Because my head is perfectly balanced and clear. No fog whatsoever lol.

 

[Kieran O'Quick]

For the conspiracy theory lovers out there watch this, it will make your day!

 

So much rubbish...

 

 

 

Dave nails it again. What a legend. Terry Wogan ain't lauhgin' at him now.

[TT350]

I think it depends where you're from and what class you're from and how xenophobic you are.

 

I really wish we were all the same. A global village completely united with equal opportunities in life and no Borders.

 

Take Rochdale for example, which is where I uses to live. It has seen a huge amount of immigrants arrive.

 

Rochdale has a lot of older generation there who have seen the towns decline over the decades from the booming mill town it was in the 50's and 60's to scruffy and neglected dumping ground it's become for African and Eastern Europeans who have nothing in common with the people who've lived there their whole lives.

 

These people have little to no education and don't or won't see the bigger picture. They just see their towns changing. Crime increase, (not through immigrants) and finding their new neighbours don't even speak the same language. It leads to fear and animosity. They're going to vote to leave. You can understand their decision based on the information THEY have.

 

Of course there is sooooooo much more to it.

 

When I was younger, as a school leaver and a few years after, I worked at a littlewoods distribution centre. It was huge and employed many many young people and older people alike from the area. I signed on with an employment agency and started there the next day and went on to get a permanent job there.

 

Things like that are ancient history now. Going to an agency and being in work the next day. They're inundated with foreign workers who are usually skilled and educated people back in their home country yet earn much more here in a factory. They're I'm no way to blame. You or I would do the same thing.

 

I remember every summer we'd get loads of college and uni kids in for the summer holidays or to start their first job after leaving school. It was nice to see all the new faces. I'd make lots of friends. And of course lots of pretty young ladies!

 

Again, a thing of the past. Walking into a factory job after school or just earning a bit of money over the holidays. There's now very stiff competition over these jobs with ever increasing lists of 'must haves' from the employers. A lot now expect you to have a full licence, a stacker licence, welding experience etc. None of which a 17 or 18 year old from this country will have.

 

That's quite sad for the youth of this country. I keep reading and hearing that our youth refuse do that kind of work.

 

Maybe some will refuse it but I haven't witnessed that kind of attitude in any significant numbers. They want to work and earn some money.

 

Are there any places in Europe that our youngsters can migrate to, even temporarily and earn 2/3 and 4 times what they earn here doing the same thing? I don't know if there are? I'd genuinely like to know.

 

If so, perhaps our young people can all get groups of 10 or so friends, share a 4 bed house and each pay a tenth of the rent and bills which make it so affordable to do, all while earning a huge wage in comparison to here. They can shop cheaply at the local "English shop" too. What an adventure and a huge wage at the end of it. Not to mention the completely free healthcare we'd get in their country

 

I know this is what a huge majority of eastern europeans do here. I know this as I have made a lot of EU friends who have told me they pay 30 or 40 quid a month in rent and next to nothing for household bills. I dated a Hungarian girl for a year or so and she was doing that very thing, as were her 8 housemates.

The she was gorgeous too. So nice and gentle natured and really loving, polite and appreciative. Awesome figure as well Ahh Kinga, the one that got away

 

Anyone would jump at the chance to earn lots of money and practically no overheads. I would, definitely. See a different country and their customs and traditions and make lots of new friends and money. What an adventure.

 

Waffling a bit there, sorry.

 

But we as indigenous Brits are paying the bills alone or with their partner. So we've got bills split by one or two or are single and paying alone. Much more expensive for the British.

 

Anyway. As I've said, no one is to blame as we'd do the exact same thing.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that being in the EU allows for them to do that here and technically speaking it allows for us to do the same thing in a different country.

 

Are there any other countries that will pay us as Brits 4x the wage we get here?

 

I really hope I haven't offended anyone. I take everyone equally and on face values

 

I love you all equally

Edited June 1, 2016 by TT350

[Jetpilot]

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2011/NEW120911A.htm

 

Nope

 

Each UN member country pays in a quota, not the EU.

[Kieran O'Quick]

.....

....Are there any other countries that will pay us as Brits 4x the wage we get here?

 

I really hope I haven't offended anyone. I take everyone equally and on face values

 

I love you all equally

 

Nicely put TT. All perfectly fair and reasoned.

 

But some people will still call you a swivel-eyed racist...

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Anything we buy from USA will be a lot more expensive after Brexit, including car parts, no doubt. Investors will shift attention on different currencies, GBP will probably fall to 1:1 with the USD, at least for a long while, there will be a lot of speculation if Britain leaves EU.

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/dollar-falls-as-investors-seek-safety-in-yen-over-brexit-polls-2016-06-01

[coldel]

.....

....Are there any other countries that will pay us as Brits 4x the wage we get here?

 

I really hope I haven't offended anyone. I take everyone equally and on face values

 

I love you all equally

 

Nicely put TT. All perfectly fair and reasoned.

 

But some people will still call you a swivel-eyed racist...

 

But this is the basic economics of the world and has nothing to do with being in the EU. Cost of living and earning differs by country, as we are near the top of the economic tree, there is a higher salary expectation. There are other countries that pay higher salaries on average such as Denmark but that's also reflected in their cost of living (from memory minimum tax payments are 50%).

 

My fear as stated a few times before is that people are voting leave because they see immigrants on the street and associate blame to them for various issues. The issues at hand are so much bigger than that, I get that I am not living in Rochdale so not in amongst it, but if we do leave, and the theoretical scenario happens where things do not work out great and uncertainty causes job losses and an increase in cost of living can you say hand on heart that is worth it for a chance to implement a points based immigration plan? If so then fair play you are thinking through your Leave vote...

[JetSet]

 

 

My fear as stated a few times before is that people are voting leave because they see immigrants on the street and associate blame to them for various issues.

 

If we do leave the EU and the immigrants stop coming then they'll soon find someone else to blame, just human nature. Anyway, I'm one of the voters that got to vote at the last EU referendum and I voted to join. Most people on here think that things were nice and rosy before we joined but they simply weren't, we had rampant inflation, industrial decline, shocking industrial relations, poor governments and next to Italy we were close to becoming the sick man of Europe. My own opinion is the risks associated with leaving The EU are just too great at the moment. What the exit campaign haven't explained is how are relation with the EU will work outside of it (mainly because they have no idea). The Norway and Switzerland options would be a non starter as this still includes free movement. Anyway, right now I'm only going to change my mind if The EU comes up with a directive that says we must drive on the right .

 

Pete

[BobbyZ]

Anyway, right now I'm only going to change my mind if The EU comes up with a directive that says we must drive on the right .

 

Pete

 

They're saving that for the 24th June

[Jetpilot]

I would be curious to know if the stay voters feel the EU in general has any glaring downsides, do you think there would be benefit for some sort of EU reform?

 

Open ended question with no hidden agenda.

[coldel]

I think like any larger organisation the same applies to the EU, things do not happen quickly, cost to implement change, more stakeholders means less likelihood to agree on complex issues...

 

Any reform I think would be in the whole decision making process, red tape removal, speed to market of efficiency improvement in trade. The world economy is moving very fast now digitally, I think the EU needs to think how it runs with it.

[docwra]

I would be curious to know if the stay voters feel the EU in general has any glaring downsides, do you think there would be benefit for some sort of EU reform?

 

Open ended question with no hidden agenda.

 

Totally - the biggest risk is that the EU cannot support the debts of Greece et al and we all face a massive financial crash, but even in that case at least we still retain a strong currency and its likely it would affect global economy anyway. The actual cost of membership is neither here nor there IMO, we would just as quickly find something else to spend it on and we do benefit int he long run.

 

My major concern is that a ridiculous bit of legislation would be imposed on us that simply wont work - we are forced to take 100,000 refugees a year when our infrastructure is already strained, a mad transaction tax is imposed when we are reliant on banking for most of our GDP, additional levies are applied to oil and gas production ....... but I dont think thats likely to happen as the EU is already so reliant on us.

 

Reform would be great but it would be at the expense of the countries that need EU support the most, its up to you whether you consider that fair or not but I honestly believe we are moving towards global economic entropy amongst the vast majority of the population anyway, we need less borders and differences and more level playing field as a race, never mind a country.

[rtbiscuit]

The completely unbiased telegraph? Newspapers report stuff that will drive up readership, they do not publish the facts. I will browse this tomorrow out of interest...but generally try to avoid biased reporting in dailies.

 

It wasn't really an article for pro or against leave and stay it was an interesting read looking at the change in views across Europe. a lot of things going on at the moment feel very much like the quiet before the storm almost like the build up to the great war. I'm not for any reason here suggesting that is what the outcome will be but both my brother and I have been watching and noticing that globally there seems to be a move against standard democracy. the likes of trump would never get air time in the past but now there seems to be a wave of dissatisfaction with the economic strains and hardships the feeling that there is a lack of trust and transparency in politicians. who knows what could happen globally.

 

I think Putin is watching with interest; if Europe turns into an infighting mess he might fancy his chances and make for another land grab. several of the ex soviet blocks are getting very nervous at them moment.

 

I think if we leave the EU will punish us to try and deter others from getting any ideas.

 

Switzerland's trade deal is currently up for negotiation; but the EU have postponed it till after the UK vote to make sure no one gets any ideas.

 

I don't think the Europe we are currently in will be the same in 15 years time. Several big name shave already said they will do what ever it takes to protect both the Euro and the EU. and I believe this will long term result in things being rolled out that we can't get out of.

 

I think if we're meant to stay in then we have to do it properly; pop on the bathing trunks and dive straight in. we'll never be taken seriously sat there dipping our toe in when ever it takes our fancy.

 

for the same reason if we're out I think we should be properly out. we can't claim to leave and then pick and choose the bits we like and ignore the bits we don't

[HaydnH]

This is an interesting argument that suggests that the economy would actually be better off outside the EU:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/01/one-glance-at-the-eus-dismal-trade-policy-simply-destroys-the-ec/

[docwra]

This is an interesting argument that suggests that the economy would actually be better off outside the EU:

 

http://www.telegraph...estroys-the-ec/

 

Apart from two major points:

 

If the EU are so @*!# at getting trade agreements, how is an isolated UK going to fare?

 

Quote: "For instance, while the EU has yet to ratify a single free trade agreement with a top 10 economy" ............. errrr, apart from the EU itself which is the worlds biggest economy. We also have freedom of movement with this economy, an agreement on human rights and multilateral VAT and other sales taxes. This is before going on to consider the terms of the Australian agreements, which I bet in the case of the Japan will be very skewed towards exports of natural resources and imports of technology. For obvious reasons.

 

[docwra]

And actually, from the same article:

 

Indeed, were further proof of Europe’s protectionist instincts needed,Brussels’ recent announcement that it plans to force Netflix to source at least 20 per cent of its content from EU TV makers makes the argument more eloquently than an Brexiter could.

 

WT actual F? Youre comparing the future of my country with Netflix content? Who is this joker?

[TT350]

.....

....Are there any other countries that will pay us as Brits 4x the wage we get here?

 

I really hope I haven't offended anyone. I take everyone equally and on face values

 

I love you all equally

 

Nicely put TT. All perfectly fair and reasoned.

 

But some people will still call you a swivel-eyed racist...

 

But this is the basic economics of the world and has nothing to do with being in the EU. Cost of living and earning differs by country, as we are near the top of the economic tree, there is a higher salary expectation. There are other countries that pay higher salaries on average such as Denmark but that's also reflected in their cost of living (from memory minimum tax payments are 50%).

 

My fear as stated a few times before is that people are voting leave because they see immigrants on the street and associate blame to them for various issues. The issues at hand are so much bigger than that, I get that I am not living in Rochdale so not in amongst it, but if we do leave, and the theoretical scenario happens where things do not work out great and uncertainty causes job losses and an increase in cost of living can you say hand on heart that is worth it for a chance to implement a points based immigration plan? If so then fair play you are thinking through your Leave vote...

 

More than anything I was trying to put across why certain demographics would vote out given the information and experiences they have. Rochdale being one example since it had recieved a hugely disproportionate amount of asylum seekers in comparison with other places.

 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2857839/Town-Rochdale-asylum-seekers-South-East-England.html

 

I can understand why someone would accuse me of being a swivel eyed racist while I'm trying to make a point about immigration and asylum seekers. It's an easy card to throw down that often negates all argument. Usually those people are from places unaffected by the topic.

 

But again, the only point I'm trying to make is that, if you're from an area where it's a huge topic amongst indigenous population then you're going to have an overwhelmingly biased opinion.

 

You can't just ignore them on the basis of racism and have done with it. It's like "Bang. There you go, deal with it and not a word back, ok?"

 

People will have something to say and they're not all racists or xenophobes.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

The LSE’s Nicholas Barr explains why he will be voting to Remain in the EU referendum – citing a wide range of arguments about sovereignty, migration, international influence, regulation, democracy, trade and the single market to make his case. He concludes the economic and foreign policy costs of leaving are large, and the gains in sovereignty in today’s connected world are limited.

 

http://blogs.lse.ac....the-referendum/

[coldel]

Who called you or accused you of being a racist? The easy card as far as I can see is when someone explains why it's somewhat naive to vote Leave on the basis of heavy immigration in a particular area, that then the comeback is "oh you think I'm racist that's what they all say when defending immigration"

 

I have agreed, more than once, that being somewhere like Rochdale where more immigration will focus the vote on immigration (as reflected in the trash media like the mail today) but I find it such a shame people who feel so strongly about leaving and probably argue for hours as to leaving, don't spend ten minutes to try and understand the implications or the real issues.

 

So a very real scenario, is we vote out, cost of living goes up, those immigrants in Rochdale are still there...will people accept the cost exchange of living to change immigration laws which they based their leave vote on, or will they blame the government for prices going up...I bet 99% of the time it's the latter.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jetpilot]

I had a very interesting chat re this today with a truly wise old boy who has been stalling on which way to go, but he has made up his mind, he is going to vote stay.

 

The reason, he actually believes it wont be long till the EU will collapse anyway, he belives Turkey, Spain, Portugal amongst others will leave with only the decent economies remaining which will then sort all their own trade agreements out without the need for the actually EU., so we would be better off to be there to have a say.

 

Interesting and perhaps thought provoking?

[docwra]

Quite possible as well, they have to default pretty badly but if they do then we are laughing.

[TT350]

Who called you or accused you of being a racist? The easy card as far as I can see is when someone explains why it's somewhat naive to vote Leave on the basis of heavy immigration in a particular area, that then the comeback is "oh you think I'm racist that's what they all say when defending immigration"

 

I have agreed, more than once, that being somewhere like Rochdale where more immigration will focus the vote on immigration (as reflected in the trash media like the mail today) but I find it such a shame people who feel so strongly about leaving and probably argue for hours as to leaving, don't spend ten minutes to try and understand the implications or the real issues.

 

So a very real scenario, is we vote out, cost of living goes up, those immigrants in Rochdale are still there...will people accept the cost exchange of living to change immigration laws which they based their leave vote on, or will they blame the government for prices going up...I bet 99% of the time it's the latter.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

It is a shame. I agree. The people I mention are not overly educated or prepared to dig for information and make an informed opinion. So they act on the information they have to hand.