Brexit 23rd June..?

[Jetpilot]

This sort of choice shouldn't be for the everyman on the street to decide, it should actually be left down to a committee of intellectuals that can actually make an informed, unbiased, media absent decision

 

Good theory, so who decides who is on the committee?

 

This is one of the main complaints about the EU, we have european mp's, unelected by us, deciding on our fate, isnt that the same as a unelected committee anyway?

 

Anyone who pays tax (controversial i know) has a right to a vote imho, it doesnt matter if he or she are barking mad, if they are contributing to the country coffers, why shouldnt they have an opinion?

Edited May 24, 2016 by Jetpilot

[mouthwash]

This sort of choice shouldn't be for the everyman on the street to decide, it should actually be left down to a committee of intellectuals that can actually make an informed, unbiased, media absent decision

 

Good theory, so who decides who is on the committee?

 

This is one of the main complaints about the EU, we have european mp's, unelected by us, deciding on our fate, isnt that the same as a unelected committee anyway?

 

Anyone who pays tax (controversial i know) has a right to a vote imho, it doesnt matter if he or she are barking mad, if they are contributing to the country coffers, why shouldnt they have an opinion?

 

You're right I don't know who would decide.

 

I think for choices that relate to who's going to run the government or local policies or what-have-you are what people who pay taxes should vote for. I think this goes a bit beyond that.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of it than what needs to be but it almost seems like having a vote for going to war or something. You wouldn't let people vote on something that has that much impact.

[Floydbax]

I agree that the voting age is about right as it is, younger than that and most people do not have enough experience of the world to make an informed decision and are more likely to act upon an illusional idea of what would happen in a perfect world. Sadly the world's not like that and you need a little more experience and cynicism in order to question the subject at hand in a detailed informed way.

[mouthwash]

@mouthwash, everyone is entitled to an opinion. personally I feel a lot of people sacrificed a lot to give us the vote, back in the old days just the gentryed folk were allowed to vote, then the sufferage movement and 2 world wars. I personally think voting should be compulsory for all.

 

 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion indeed but this isn't a decision that should be based on yours or anyone else's emotions. If they took everyone's vote and used it to sway informed decisions, I'd be a bit more on board with that but for the general public to have the entire say? Nah, we can't be trusted.

 

I've got to say, I don't really care but it's still an interesting topic (not the vote but what decisions should be left to the public).

[Jetpilot]

The only reason we are being given this vote is because Dave realised he had to offer it to stay in government imho, right or wrong I actually think the voting public should be given a better say on major decisions. Your right that we cant be trusted but no more than the politicians, as you say, who do you believe when it comes to such things, I.e weapons of mass destruction and Iraq.

 

Its all smoke and mirrors, but if for example Ekona & Codel want to stay, i have faith they believe their decision right for whatever their reasons and if they end up being in the majority, I have no problem, but, we now have a choice and I wouldnt want to miss the chance to vote.

[Ekona]

If people took a bit more care about the MPs they voted for, we'd be able to trust their decisions more. Again though, people are like sheep and just vote for the colour or the soundbite.

[Floydbax]

If people took a bit more care about the MPs they voted for, we'd be able to trust their decisions more. Again though, people are like sheep and just vote for the colour or the soundbite.

 

I live in Osbourne's constituency and apart from getting rid of that freaking weirdo Neil Hamilton for the wonderful Martin Bell that time, then usually the vote's of no consequence, I was for Proportional Representation but nobody else who cared about democracy voted for that, so we're stuck with a @*!# political system

[Adrian@TORQEN]

10 points to consider about Brexit and the EU Referendum

 

1. We’ll have control over our own laws. No. We won’t, we will still need to harmonise with Europe. The only difference between now and then is that at the moment we get to influence those laws. If we leave we just have to adopt them (See Norway).

 

2. British courts can make the final decision. More complex this one but, in short, no. They can’t. At least not any more than now. The European Court of Human Rights (the Daily Mule’s biggest enemy) has nothing to do with the EU. The European Court of Justice is the final arbiter of EU law (not national law)… see point 1.

 

3. We can control our own borders. Er… We already do. You remember that passport thing you have to show the man?

 

4. We can control immigration. In theory, yes, we could. We could pull up the drawbridge and fill in the tunnel too. But it won’t happen because we lose more than we gain.

 

5. Staying in makes terrorism more likely. One of the more facile claims, this is so brilliantly stupid that it is almost genius. Staying in the EU makes us a hotbed for terrorism whilst leaving means we’re all safe. There you have it! The only problem is, it’s not true. First of all, see point 4 above. Then consider that terrorists are just like multi-nationals – they don’t respect national borders, they don’t play fair and they don’t care about you.

 

6. We’ll renegotiate free trade deals to replace the EU. We won’t. Certainly not quickly at least. We’ll trade with the EU as a member of the EEA so we get pretty much the same as now but we lose the power to influence any future changes. Again, see Norway. And the US has already made it clear it has no interest in a FTA with a newly isolated and rapidly sinking UK. But if you believe we can do instant deals why don’t you start with Scotland. As it will undoubtedly leave if the UK leaves the EU. As eventually will Northern Ireland. And then Wales… starting to feel like the ugly kid at the school disco yet?

 

7. We’ll be strutting our stuff as world power again. Newsflash! The UK is a world power. It has a seat on the UN Security Council. It punches enormously above its weight on the international stage. This is in part because of its connectedness to Europe and its power within the EU. Leave and what are you left with? There is momentum building to review the UNSC membership, what do you think are the odds that an isolated UK will still be there?

 

8. The economy will thrive if we’re outside the EU. Seriously? It’s not even worth bothering trying to answer this one! The statement is just so blatantly devoid of logic. We’re not Norway. we sold off most of the family silver years ago. And what’s left is rapidly being outsourced and sold off too. And that great shining generator of wealth (for a small few), the financial sector? That will move to Frankfurt, did you ever see a bank with loyalty? (OK, I accept that this could be seen as a plus). In short, if we leave, we get to live through a fire sale at the sunset of a once great economic and political power.

 

9. The EU is incompetent, badly run and a drain on resources. Yes. It is. It is beyond incompetent in many cases. But we’re stuck with it one way or the other – leaving does not change that. It might be hard to change it but at least it’s possible from the inside (now more than ever). What can we do from outside? It’s also worth pondering that many of the problems with supposed-EU dictates lie in the local implementation (remember, it was the UK’s fault it didn’t impose the moratorium in immigration in 2004, as Germany and others did).

 

10. What’s it ever done for us anyway? Nothing much. Other than working time directives and other ways that protect your rights at work, protect your children. Then there’s consumer protection and European peace. Not to mention the wholesale transition of Eastern Europe from volatile authoritarian states into thriving democracies. Maybe you don’t care about any of those things. But you should.

 

http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/

Edited May 25, 2016 by Adrian@TORQEN

[docwra]

Spot on.

[HaydnH]

1. We’ll have control over our own laws. No. We won’t, we will still need to harmonise with Europe. The only difference between now and then is that at the moment we get to influence those laws. If we leave we just have to adopt them (See Norway).

 

But even the "70% of EU laws are forced on Norway" figure is a load of bollox! That's the amount of EU directives they've accepted vs the amount of EU directives they've declined. About 53% of all UK legislation came from the UK since 2009, comparatively about 9%-28% (depending on the source, 2 below) of all Norway's laws come from the EU.

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/

http://www.aecr.eu/less-than-10-of-norways-laws-emanate-from-brussels/

https://www.regjeringen.no/contentassets/5d3982d042a2472eb1b20639cd8b2341/no/pdfs/nou201220120002000dddpdfs.pdf#page=795

 

They also get the chance to voice their opinions on EU law at an early stage. So "see norway" doesn't look too bad to me, especially as they don't have to pay the Common Agricultural Policy which is about 40% of the EU's budget.

[Jetpilot]

The only difference between now and then is that at the moment we get to influence those laws.

 

And some other stuff......

 

 

You mean like the 480 odd laws we objected to but still had to agree to doesnt seem like much of an influence to me.

 

So in essence, if being out of the Eu makes zero difference to being in the EU, we might as well be out and not paying vast sums of money to them?

[Jetpilot]

I hope no one else caught the tv eu thing last night, it was embarrassing from both leave and stay to be honest. I actually believe the politicians dont have a clue about whether its a good or bad thing, none of them had anything really relevant to say or answered any questions with authority.

 

As for Alex Salmond now wanting the UK stay vote when he didnt even want to part of the UK.....typical Scot, on the firm when it suits then and the next minute they are all misty eyed and independent.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Posted by a friend on social media:

 

===========

 

Alright, you filthy animals. I don't normally do this, because I believe that everyone should have the right to vote how they want at elections, but a) this ain't an election, it's a referendum so go @*!# yourself, and I honestly believe that the stakes are too high for me not to get involved here. If I can influence even one person with this post, then I'll feel like I've done something important. As a result, feel free to share this far and wide as I've done a veritable ****load of research and I don't want all my hard work going to waste.

 

So, I'll put my cards on the table: I believe, very very strongly, that we need to stay in the EU. I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with David 'PigFellatio' Cameron, but in this unfortunate case I am, and here's why.

 

We stand to gain SO MUCH from staying in the EU. "How much", you're (probably not) asking? Well, I made a convenient list for your perusal, WITH sources, so you can't be a **** and say 'you're making that up!' and froth at the mouth like a rabid ****.

 

I know people on the internet like listicles with clickbait titles, so here are "14 Reasons Why We Shouldn't Leave The EU That Everyone Should Know! You Won't Believe #8!":

 

1) The EU provides easy access to 1/3 of the world's markets by value (in other words, the EU's combined market value is 1/3 of the entire world's, and we can tap into it whenever the **** we want). [1] It also gives UK businesses preferential market access to over 50 countries OUTSIDE the EU, including some of the fastest-growing economies in the world like South Korea and South Africa. [2]

2) The EU gives us better product safety. You know, so your toddler doesn't impale him/herself on a shittily designed toy, or swallow a load of poisonous plastic. [3]

3) The EU gives structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline (hello, Cornwall). [4]

4) The EU gave us lead-free petrol. [5]

5) The EU gives us cheaper mobile charges. [6] It also gives us cheaper air travel. [7] **** yeah, cheap things!

6) The EU gives us cleaner beaches, rivers and air (hello again, Cornwall). [8]

7) The EU gives us improved consumer protection and food labelling, so you actually know what it's in your Chicken McNuggets (hint: it's chicken. It wasn't always chicken, though). [9]

8) The EU has helped break up monopolies. [10] If you don't know why monopolies are a Very Bad Thing, try playing the popular board game 'Monopoly' and see how many friends you have left when you win.

9) The EU gives us cross-border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling, and terrorism. [11]

10) Being a member of the EU means no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market, as well as the freedom to travel, live and work across Europe. [12] This one is particularly important for me as someone who likes to live, work and travel abroad. Do you have ANY IDEA how ****ing great it is to be able to travel and work visa-free?! Having to a get a visa for every single country you enter is a nightmare, believe me. If you've ever tried to travel around Asia, Africa or South America, you'll understand what I'm saying.

11) The EU creates and helps uphold all kinds of awesome human rights, such as equal pay legislation, holiday entitlement, and the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime. [13] I'd also like to point out that it's some of these same human rights that David 'PorkTwatter' Cameron tried to erode back in 2014, with the EU playing a major role in stopping him. [14]

12) The EU creates and upholds all kinds of great animal welfare legislation; it has the strongest wildlife protection laws in the world and contributes to improved animal welfare in food production. [15]

13) The EU funds incredible scientific research and industrial collaboration (including, most recently, a project that may be the catalyst for a cure for breast cancer being found in the next few years, I @*!# you not). [16]

14) Finally, and arguably most importantly, the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after many years of bloodshed. [17] It has also assisted in the extraordinary social, political and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. [18]

 

Sources:

[1] http://news.cbi.org....rade-deals-pdf/

[2] http://europa.eu/rap...-13-1080_en.htm

[3] http://ec.europa.eu/...ve/index_en.htm

[4] https://www.cornwall...nvestment-fund/

[5] http://ec.europa.eu/...0197_LAYMAN.pdf

[6] https://www.theguard...roaming-charges

[7] http://europa.eu/you...ir/index_en.htm

[8] http://www.theguardi...rs-eu-standards

[9] http://ec.europa.eu/...on/index_en.htm

[10] https://en.wikipedia...competition_law (I know I'm not supposed to use Wikipedia as a source for its less-than-rigorous academic standards, but **** YOU I'm not in uni anymore, I'll do what I like).

[11] http://heinonline.or...8&div=8&id

[12] http://ec.europa.eu/...cy/index_en.htm

[13] https://en.wikipedia...on_Human_Rights

[14] http://www.telegraph...until-2016.html

[15] http://ec.europa.eu/...re/index_en.htm

[16] http://cordis.europa...n/94691_en.html

[17] The Second World War, mother****er. Read a history book.

[18] The Cold War, mother****er. Read a history book.

 

And now, let's take a moment to address some of the arguments for leaving the EU. Apart from the fact that I can't find a single reputable study that suggests we'd be any better off outside of the EU (and believe me, I've looked; I want to research my counterarguments as thoroughly as my arguments), the most persuasive arguments I've found are what I'm going to term 'the trade argument' and 'the immigration argument'.

 

The trade argument goes as follows: if we left the EU, we could negotiate a sort of 'amicable divorce' where we somehow retain strong trading links with the EU while not being subject to its laws. Many people point to Canada as a good example of this model, which recently negotiated a CETA (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement- do I have to google EVERYTHING for you?) with the EU. I have two retorts to this argument. My first retort: Canada was never a part of the EU in the first place. To return to the divorce analogy outlined above- whereby the EU and the U.K. are a sort of 'married couple' and trade is their kids- the U.K. seeking a CETA after leaving the EU would be like a nasty, messy divorce where one parent uses the kids as a weapon against the other, threatening to take them away whenever their demands aren't met. Canada's CETA, meanwhile, is like a married couple approaching someone else to have a threesome at a swinger's party, which sounds a lot more fun and exciting, I'm sure you'll agree. My second retort to the above argument is simple: why even take the risk? If we stay in the EU, our trade with them will continue to be prosperous and full of great sex while the kids are asleep (okay, I've taken the analogy too far now). If we leave, however, there's a chance any trade agreement could fail catastrophically and leave our economy in a shitstorm. In fact, I would argue the likes of Germany, France and other leading EU nations would not simply let us pick and choose what rules and trade agreements we adhere to, so the likelihood of us being absolutely fine, trade-wise, after leaving the EU seems overly optimistic. Plus negotiating a CETA of any kind could take years and have a completely uncertain outcome. Again, why take the risk? An additional point: arguments no. 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, and 12 above are examples of really great laws and regulations the EU has introduced. If you say you want to leave the EU so we have autonomy over our own laws, you know that you're effectively handing control of our country over to David 'HideTheSausageLiterally' Cameron, don't you? In terms of making laws that benefit all of us, I trust the EU way more than that guy.

 

The immigration argument tends to centre around the whole 'visa-free work and travel' thing, and is generally espoused by people terrified of dem immigantz stealin are jobz. Alternatively it's espoused by people afraid of terrorists being able to come here more easily, but for that I'd refer you to point no. 9 above; we're safer from terrorism in the EU because we can share intelligence and resources with other countries more easily. But back to the 'stealing our jobs' fear; while it's true that technically speaking there could be an influx of foreigners coming to claim your particular job at any moment, just remember, we've been part of the EU for 43 years now and it hasn't happened yet, despite what the mainstream media may tell you (and you DEFINITELY shouldn't trust those guys; more on that later). Seriously, do you know ANYONE, personally, that has had their job stolen by a foreigner? Be honest now. I'd be willing to wager that you don't, and I'll explain why that is too: the immigrants that are coming here are not stealing YOUR jobs, specifically. They're either starting their own businesses (in which case they're actually creating jobs), or they're skilled labourers taking jobs there just aren't enough trained British people to take (such as doctors or surgeons), or they're unskilled labourers taking the jobs that you don't want (like toilet cleaning or washing dishes). Incidentally, about a year ago I taught English to some Eastern European immigrants who worked in a salad-packing factory in Lichfield. One Latvian girl was actually a teacher back home, but she was making more money as a salad-packer here than she was as a teacher in Latvia(!)- the point being that unskilled immigrant workers are generally happy to work shitty menial jobs that no British person wants, and your cushy 9-to-5 office job is not under threat. Not even a little bit- so don't worry your xenophobic little head about it. Oh, and one last thing on this subject, to paraphrase Louis CK: maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're @*!# at your job.

 

If you've made it thus far through this absolute essay of a post, congratulations! You're nearly at the end! But before I go, I just want to hit you with one final thought. Over 80% of UK newspapers are owned by five right-wing media billionaires (aka five massive ****stacks): Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail), Rupert Murdoch (Sun/Times), Richard Desmond (Express), and the Barclay Brothers (Telegraph). Murdoch is an Australian living in New York and Rothermere lives in France, while the Barclay Brothers live in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes. And guess who wants to stop billionaires using tax havens to avoid paying their taxes? That's right, the EU. So of COURSE the British newspapers are trying to persuade you to leave the EU; it benefits their owners personally. The moral of the story is, don't gather your views from newspapers. Do some research like I have with this post, you lazy twonknoggin.

 

In conclusion: we're in a really great position right now. We're part of the EU with all the benefits that entails, but without being tied to their notoriously unstable currency. Leaving the EU would not only be hypocritical since we spent so much time telling Scotland they shouldn't leave the UK this time last year with all that lovely 'better together' rhetoric, it might also be downright stupid and harmful to our economy.

 

Short version:

Vote to stay in the EU, you filthy animals. Because reasons. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

[HaydnH]

Essay

 

I read that on FB and thought it was crap, for example number 2... better product safety? Look at our wall plugs/sockets for example, BS1363 plugs are the safest in the world, leaving the EU isn't going to change our stance on safety which is usually better than the rest of the EU. And I can't believe you posted number 4 on a car forum!?!? They gave us lead free petrol?? You mean they removed the choice of lead free or leaded which was a PITA for some classic cars right?

[Rock_Steady]

10 points to consider about Brexit and the EU Referendum

 

1. We’ll have control over our own laws. No. We won’t, we will still need to harmonise with Europe. The only difference between now and then is that at the moment we get to influence those laws. If we leave we just have to adopt them (See Norway).

 

2. British courts can make the final decision. More complex this one but, in short, no. They can’t. At least not any more than now. The European Court of Human Rights (the Daily Mule’s biggest enemy) has nothing to do with the EU. The European Court of Justice is the final arbiter of EU law (not national law)… see point 1.

 

3. We can control our own borders. Er… We already do. You remember that passport thing you have to show the man?

 

4. We can control immigration. In theory, yes, we could. We could pull up the drawbridge and fill in the tunnel too. But it won’t happen because we lose more than we gain.

 

5. Staying in makes terrorism more likely. One of the more facile claims, this is so brilliantly stupid that it is almost genius. Staying in the EU makes us a hotbed for terrorism whilst leaving means we’re all safe. There you have it! The only problem is, it’s not true. First of all, see point 4 above. Then consider that terrorists are just like multi-nationals – they don’t respect national borders, they don’t play fair and they don’t care about you.

 

6. We’ll renegotiate free trade deals to replace the EU. We won’t. Certainly not quickly at least. We’ll trade with the EU as a member of the EEA so we get pretty much the same as now but we lose the power to influence any future changes. Again, see Norway. And the US has already made it clear it has no interest in a FTA with a newly isolated and rapidly sinking UK. But if you believe we can do instant deals why don’t you start with Scotland. As it will undoubtedly leave if the UK leaves the EU. As eventually will Northern Ireland. And then Wales… starting to feel like the ugly kid at the school disco yet?

 

7. We’ll be strutting our stuff as world power again. Newsflash! The UK is a world power. It has a seat on the UN Security Council. It punches enormously above its weight on the international stage. This is in part because of its connectedness to Europe and its power within the EU. Leave and what are you left with? There is momentum building to review the UNSC membership, what do you think are the odds that an isolated UK will still be there?

 

8. The economy will thrive if we’re outside the EU. Seriously? It’s not even worth bothering trying to answer this one! The statement is just so blatantly devoid of logic. We’re not Norway. we sold off most of the family silver years ago. And what’s left is rapidly being outsourced and sold off too. And that great shining generator of wealth (for a small few), the financial sector? That will move to Frankfurt, did you ever see a bank with loyalty? (OK, I accept that this could be seen as a plus). In short, if we leave, we get to live through a fire sale at the sunset of a once great economic and political power.

 

9. The EU is incompetent, badly run and a drain on resources. Yes. It is. It is beyond incompetent in many cases. But we’re stuck with it one way or the other – leaving does not change that. It might be hard to change it but at least it’s possible from the inside (now more than ever). What can we do from outside? It’s also worth pondering that many of the problems with supposed-EU dictates lie in the local implementation (remember, it was the UK’s fault it didn’t impose the moratorium in immigration in 2004, as Germany and others did).

 

10. What’s it ever done for us anyway? Nothing much. Other than working time directives and other ways that protect your rights at work, protect your children. Then there’s consumer protection and European peace. Not to mention the wholesale transition of Eastern Europe from volatile authoritarian states into thriving democracies. Maybe you don’t care about any of those things. But you should.

 

http://www.andywilli...-eu-referendum/

Agree with everything apart from the first one " see Norway " they're not forced to comply they just choose to

[gsexr]

We need to control numbers of people coming here and that`s not because migration is a problem but because the resources and infrastructure is not in place to support them.

If we can cure those issues then the migration problem would not actually be a problem.

 

If we as a country are not going to sort that out then it is madness to carry on as we are.

 

If you are having a party and supplying the drink and the food then you might want to know how many guests are coming.

 

If your not sure how many are coming then you have to make sure you have plenty in stock.

 

As usual this country under-estimates rather than over-estimates.

 

If we are not going to change the way we estimate whats required to provide decent services and infrastructure then what choice do we have but to limit the numbers of peoples coming here and if that means leaving the EU to do it then Brexit has to be the answer.

 

It might not be perfect but could at least give us a chance to get things under control.

[coldel]

Leaving the EU will not stop immigration, you wont be able to 'shut up shop', the global economy doesn't really work that way. We will have to include freedom of movement in any trade deals we sign in the case of an exit, given that everyone seems happy to slate our politicians at every turn for being useless at negotiating anything I am not sure on that basis then why people would think they would suddenly become ace trade negotiators and be able to somehow prevent freedom of movement (which is a requisite of being in the European economic area).

 

Are we bursting at the seams, or are people going over the top thanks to the role the media play in influencing people? Would it surprise you to know population growth in the 1960s was higher than it is now, did the country fall over then?

 

Of course what I mentioned above is different to refugee migration, and people seem to mix the two together as if its the same thing - dealing with this is not a case of shutting the door, its about dealing with it at its source. Already most of the European continental countries are harbouring the majority, because they have nowhere else to go. Shut the door and the weight against that door just gets bigger and bigger until it goes bang and you are overwhelmed.

[HaydnH]

We will have to include freedom of movement in any trade deals we sign in the case of an exit...

 

Freedom of movement of movement isn't really the concern, it's managing the related expenses. For example the "we won't pay benefits until you've been here X years" idea has gone down like a lead balloon inside Europe, outside Europe we may have control over that.

[Jetpilot]

Leaving the EU will not stop immigration, you wont be able to 'shut up shop', the global economy doesn't really work that way. We will have to include freedom of movement

 

Even though it was said tongue in cheek, if leaving the Eu will make no difference to immigration, laws and host of other stuff apparently leaving wont make any difference to, why not leave and stop chucking them 10 billion net each year?

[coldel]

We will have to include freedom of movement in any trade deals we sign in the case of an exit...

 

Freedom of movement of movement isn't really the concern, it's managing the related expenses. For example the "we won't pay benefits until you've been here X years" idea has gone down like a lead balloon inside Europe, outside Europe we may have control over that.

 

But this is such a basic view its bordering on pointless, what sort of rules do you apply, how do you apply them in line with international law.

 

For example, so what of the 1m couples where one half is EU migrant and the other British born, do you penalise the British born person because their spouse is claiming a benefit. What does benefit claimant mean? It could well be that some of them are very well qualified but cannot find work (like British people who are well qualified and also not in work - do you penalise the EU migrant just because they were not born here?). What of the life long British claimant, do they have a birthright to taxpapers money over an EU immigrant who could have come here qualified and been sacked 6 months ago?

 

I could go on about the number of permutations...

 

...the number of people that the basic view looks at i.e. you came here, didnt work, now claiming, is tiny, a single digit % of the overall impact on benefits in this country. Yet this is the headline grabbing stuff you see on the front of the Daily Mail (newspaper for people who want to read the Sun but don't like football) - they do not shout out '95% of benefits claimed by British born people' do they?

[Jetpilot]

^^^^ Couldnt agree more about lifelong benefit scroungers, but lets get our house in order before we start talking guests.

[HaydnH]

they do not shout out '95% of benefits claimed by British born people' do they?

 

Sure they do: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547815/Almost-MILLION-people-work-benefits-three-past-four-years-despite-Government-s-employment-drive.html

 

p.s: I had to google that... I don't read the daily mail.

[coldel]

Leaving the EU will not stop immigration, you wont be able to 'shut up shop', the global economy doesn't really work that way. We will have to include freedom of movement

 

Even though it was said tongue in cheek, if leaving the Eu will make no difference to immigration, laws and host of other stuff apparently leaving wont make any difference to, why not leave and stop chucking them 10 billion net each year?

 

You are absolutely right, which is why up front I said I believe this is not a vote on immigration as a central argument, but many people think it is. In its simplest form I see this as a vote of an aspiration (of being independent of the EU of which I am not against btw) offset against the financial risk associated with it. Will the resulting uncertainty and protracted trade negotiations mean my cost of living goes up to a point it makes that aspiration worth while. I am trying to be practical on this as well as balancing that entrepreneurial spirit we all have in us.

 

At the moment the Leave campaign have been so superficial in their arguments I cannot possibly, reasonably vote for them.

[coldel]

they do not shout out '95% of benefits claimed by British born people' do they?

 

Sure they do: http://www.dailymail...ment-drive.html

 

p.s: I had to google that... I don't read the daily mail.

 

yeah yeah...

 

I was referring to the usual individual cases they like to shout about, Mr Khan Originally from Pakistan claims £43,000 in benefits whilst playing Squash each week.

[HaydnH]

I was referring to the usual individual cases they like to shout about, Mr Khan Originally from Pakistan claims £43,000 in benefits whilst playing Squash each week.

 

You need to be careful, the Mayor of London will have you for slander!!