Brexit 23rd June..?

[rtbiscuit]

Depends if you like holidays or not

 

No-one buys British just for the sake of it any more, not when a lot of our stuff is overpriced tat. If you're going to buy tat, might as well buy cheap tat. I like the theory of buying British, but I can't remember the last time I did on purpose.

 

Sadly haven't been able to afford to go abroad for the last 3 years, this year is our first holiday in ages to....dorset

 

A lot of the british food is b becoming very good, even rivalling the europeans

 

have bought 2 british cars in the last 15 years,

 

would buy another jag happily in the future.

[Floydbax]

So how do we negotiate a better deal if everyone is too lazy, and they'll just keep things the way they are?

 

I don't mean to be deliberately obtuse (for a change), it just looks like a contradiction.

 

Because the kick up the ass they need to renegotiate the bits of the EU that don't work, will be the UK population telling them that we can think for ourselves and we now realise that we have been propping up the failing and frankly economic retard countries for decades now, despite the ridiculous scare 'in' campaign

[bytespc]

all the money we chuck at the Euro Countries who cant be arsed to pay proper taxes etc etc ...yes Greece / Spain / France / Turkey that means you would mean no more cash strapped NHS , money for infrastructure ( roads etc ) and if we finally elect a leader with balls , take control of our borders and build our armed forces back up, yes I know Turkey hasn't technically joined yet ( god help us when they get free movement ).

 

Mind you I also think we should stop all aid to Pakistan / India / China / Brazil / hell all African Countries there corruption / space program's and growth make a mockery of our largess

[Sargara]

So if everything will stay the same, why spend the money to leave?

 

You mean why save money and leave? We pay more into the EU (currently) than we get out, any additional cost associated with untangling would be a short term issue. Its a moot point.

http://www.telegraph...-EU-budget.html

 

And that is of course if things stay the same, they wont. Its only a matter of time before we get squeezed again for more.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Sargara

[Ekona]

We get out more than we pay in, it's just not a direct figure. Col has made that point time and time again in this thread, in the most eloquent way I've seen anywhere on the internets.

 

all the money we chuck at the Euro Countries who cant be arsed to pay proper taxes etc etc ...yes Greece / Spain / France / Turkey that means you would mean no more cash strapped NHS , money for infrastructure ( roads etc ) and if we finally elect a leader with balls , take control of our borders and build our armed forces back up, yes I know Turkey hasn't technically joined yet ( god help us when they get free movement ).

 

Mind you I also think we should stop all aid to Pakistan / India / China / Brazil / hell all African Countries there corruption / space program's and growth make a mockery of our largess

As I said earlier, any extra money we may or may not get from leaving wouldn't go towards anything other than paying off our debts. NHS, roads, education etc won't see a penny.

 

And you do realise that we get the same thing from the countries you mention as we do from the EU, in terms of money in to money out? We pay them £10Bn in aid (or whatever the figure is), they then make sure their companies place orders in the UK for the value of £20Bn. That's how the world works, so if we stopped all that aid then we'd be stuffing ourselves.

 

 

Politics has changed so much these days, we'll never see another Thatcher or Churchill again. You talk about a strong leader, well I'd argue the closest to that anywhere right now in the developed world would be Trump if he gets in: Is that what you want? Politics is far more subtle, you can't just bowl in and demand everything without making concessions. It's naive to think otherwise.

[docwra]

Daily Mail reader right here:

 

all the money we chuck at the Euro Countries who cant be arsed to pay proper taxes etc etc ...yes Greece / Spain / France / Turkey that means you would mean no more cash strapped NHS , money for infrastructure ( roads etc ) and if we finally elect a leader with balls , take control of our borders and build our armed forces back up, yes I know Turkey hasn't technically joined yet ( god help us when they get free movement ).

 

Where to start? France and Spain have scary tax offices and laws that make HMRC look like pussycats, Turkey isnt in the EU and Greece's main problem was that they totally misrepresented their economy in order to join. Tax evasion there is rife, but when the GDP is 30% of what its supposed to be then youre on a hiding to nothing anyway.

 

A "leader with balls" still cant go against EU, or even UK legislation and just force new laws through, Id say a leader with balls would be one that had had a referendum for Scottish Independence, and then another on whether we stay in the EU, maybe he would negotiate so that the UK (and in some cases, only the UK) doesnt have to subscribe to the EU directives that arent beneficial for his country too.

Take control of our borders? What do you suggest, blow up the Chunnel and fire missiles at all cross channel ferries? The UK has far and away the lowest illegal immigration of anywhere in Europe, and as has been stated many times EU (i.e. legal) immigration results in a net benefit for our economy too.

 

Mind you I also think we should stop all aid to Pakistan / India / China / Brazil / hell all African Countries there corruption / space program's and growth make a mockery of our largess

 

As Ekona has pointed out, if you spent even 30 seconds actually researching this bullshit propaganda youll find that once again, our economy benefits substantially from the "aid" that we give to foreign countries.

 

Sorry to single you out but this is what terrifies me about this vote, that people will just pay attention to the big writing on the front of tabloid comic books and then form political opinion over it. Take 10 minutes and actually look into what youre saying, if you still believe its correct then more power to you .......... but I doubt you will.

Edited May 13, 2016 by docwra

[docwra]

We need to leave in order to renegotiate a proper deal .............. <snip> The short term cost of leaving will be next to nothing

 

I do a lot of business in Europe, and was given an example the other day of what might happen if we left the EU. At the moment we can use reverse charge VAT, basically where we tell HMRC who we have done business with and where and then dont have to charge and claim VAT in 20 different countries. The information is shared between EU members and it all happens automatically like magic.

 

If we were to drop out of this agreement, the administrative burden of claiming on our side and validation on the country in questions side would be huge, its likely we would have to pay an extra fee and suffer much longer return times. In itself that would probably be enough to kill my company off, along with a lot of others and this is without any of the other free trade arrangeemnts that would go out of the window - if we arent paying into the EU we cant expect them to carry out administration for free.

 

Its not just the big obvious things like free movement of people, its all the other stuff that you dont even see unless youre importing/exporting that will bump the cost of running a business up, very few business can accept even a 5% increase in costs without serious problems.

Edited May 13, 2016 by docwra

[Floydbax]

We need to leave in order to renegotiate a proper deal .............. <snip> The short term cost of leaving will be next to nothing

 

I do a lot of business in Europe, and was given an example the other day of what might happen if we left the EU. At the moment we can use reverse charge VAT, basically where we tell HMRC who we have done business with and where and then dont have to charge and claim VAT in 20 different countries. The information is shared between EU members and it all happens automatically like magic.

 

If we were to drop out of this agreement, the administrative burden of claiming on our side and validation on the country in questions side would be huge, its likely we would have to pay an extra fee and suffer much longer return times. In itself that would probably be enough to kill my company off, along with a lot of others and this is without any of the other free trade arrangeemnts that would go out of the window - if we arent paying into the EU we cant expect them to carry out administration for free.

 

Its not just the big obvious things like free movement of people, its all the other stuff that you dont even see unless youre importing/exporting that will bump the cost of running a business up, very few business can accept even a 5% increase in costs without serious problems.

 

What you are talking about is what I meant by the parts that actually work and work well. Why would any sane person change that? It works both ways, it's easy for us and them too!!! The fact is that the EU Superstate is a bloated den of corruption and a massive waste of money AND their intent is European power domination turning our elected governments into powerless puppets. The economic benefits it has achieved could have been reached more cheaply and mare easily but for the 'jobs for the boys'!!

[Sargara]

We get out more than we pay in, it's just not a direct figure. Col has made that point time and time again in this thread, in the most eloquent way I've seen anywhere on the internets.

 

No offence to coldel as I must have missed those, but based on what? All the articles I read/google (and ive checked multiple) state the opposite. Even the Treasury says we pay in more than we get back: https://www.gov.uk/g...eb_09122015.pdf

 

Which is it?

Edited May 13, 2016 by Sargara

[bytespc]

one thing I'm definitely not is naïve and yes I know there not in officially yet but it's in all but name.....

 

as for he Trump comment, for me he's a breath of fresh air....as one famous movie quote goes.....this town needs an enema..

[coldel]

Gross payments are something like £18bn, net payments after rebate and other reductions are something like £8.5bn - so the £350m a week being banded around stating that it could buy a hospital each week etc. is incorrect (it's less than half that) so I really do hope people are not falling for it, simple sums (and supported by the document above) show that.

 

What we put in net, then generates various funds, one is to support agriculture for instance which we benefit heavily from, other countries need help from funds that affect different parts of their economy such as infrastructure. There are also various support areas funded by our money that help to build capabilities in other countries in the EU, now this might sound like we are giving money away but building efficiency and better standards into other countries mean they are more capable to trade with us both import and export.

 

By also improving the industries within other EU countries, they must in turn create better working conditions (reduction in sweat houses for instance) and adhere to the EU working codes and standards in their products which we adhere to - this puts countries in more of a level footing in terms of product quality, safety and delivery.

 

There are thousands of other ways the money gets used - maybe you are right and the EU doesn't use it effectively enough and that needs sorting (note we can only affect this if we are at the table) - but there is I am afraid no simple equation that says "8.5bn not paid to the EU = 8.5bn in our pockets"

[Floydbax]

There are thousands of other ways the money gets used - maybe you are right and the EU doesn't use it effectively enough and that needs sorting (note we can only affect this if we are at the table)

 

 

And this is the problem, we are at the table but the waiter is ignoring us. We need to get out and renegotiate into a union for us that suits us not the hierarchy of the EU non-elected powerhouse, with their own agendas. The deal Cameron got recently was the sum of zilch!! The EU will still be there, it and all the trade we do is not going to magically disappear overnight. Really, the only way that we can get anything is to let the EU know that the UK is not willing to lie down and become part of the planned superstate.

 

I have noticed on the news , just, that John Major has been rolled out and he's at the 'guilty by association' game of closet racism!! Horrible politics! As well as some IMF press release pointing at doom and gloom and economic depression!! Listen to it, it's all 'if's, 'could's' and 'maybe's' - Ridiculous. Remember the saying 'lies, damn lies and statistics' they are manipulating the figures they use to the end they want, I find it insulting TBH, but that is the way those people look at the populace!

[Ekona]

So where's the proof that leaving will be better? I've seen precisely zero facts from that side, other than ifs, coulds and maybes.

[coldel]

I try to ignore all the political games that are going on, as you say there will be someone else paid a few quid to give their view one way or another tomorrow. There are a few you can look to with some insight, certainly the BoE announcement was unprecedented and unexpected and came out of nowhere - they have opposed sitting governments in the past so are certainly not yes-men to the leadership.

 

The thing is that I would say half the country will simply vote one way or the other based on a meme or something shared on the internet. Happily go tell their friends that we suddenly will have £350m in the bank each week and we will suddenly see hospitals springing up left right and centre (no offence to any members posting these to date intended!) and that superficial view is enough and they do not care enough to look further and thats their choice I guess.

 

I guess a few things I believe I understand are correct are:

 

1. We do not pay £350m a week into the EU

2. Of the two types of legislation of law we have EU input on is 50% and 10% - and this is not law being passed down to us, its often them agreeing to law we have decided to implement

3. There is no precedent for leaving the EU apart from Greenland that had to bi-laterally negotiate its fishing trade deals, this took more than two years for this one deal alone to agree

4. I haven't read anywhere were any country trades tariff free with the EU that is not a part of it

 

Happy to be told otherwise on these, but I am trying to get clear in my head what risks I am voting for on either side, and which in my view, is less risky and more likely to give an outcome I want. Statements like 'take back control' do not actually mean anything on their own...

[Floydbax]

So where's the proof that leaving will be better? I've seen precisely zero facts from that side, other than ifs, coulds and maybes.

 

There is no proof, but there is the fact that while we are in we will never be able to negotiate any deals that are beneficial to us AND we will be dragged into the planned European Superstate at the cost of our own economy. Which does well despite the EU!.

[coldel]

You sound like Boris Johnson there Floyd

 

Not sure what you have said is FACT, I think its an opinion, there is no legislation in place stating that the UK will have to become part of the 'Superstate' in fact nothing in law at the moment. Part of the conversations that Cameron had recently included that to stay part of the EU is that we retain an ability to remain at arms length from fully integrating. You could argue that is rubbish and just political talk, but its no more political talk than what Boris is saying (and to be quite frank I have very little faith in Boris talking much sense given his agenda on this is completely to jump the rungs in the party)

[rtbiscuit]

You sound like Boris Johnson there Floyd

 

Not sure what you have said is FACT, I think its an opinion, there is no legislation in place stating that the UK will have to become part of the 'Superstate' in fact nothing in law at the moment. Part of the conversations that Cameron had recently included that to stay part of the EU is that we retain an ability to remain at arms length from fully integrating. You could argue that is rubbish and just political talk, but its no more political talk than what Boris is saying (and to be quite frank I have very little faith in Boris talking much sense given his agenda on this is completely to jump the rungs in the party)

 

Even if we aren't integrated into the U.S.E, every one else in the club all join up how much say will we actually have; we'll be little the little kid on the outside of a group huddle trying to poke in. they'll listen even less.

 

I feel a vote to stay is like giving Europe a mandate to say "well you wanted to stay you voted for it, the rules are changing now you'll be sucked in even more. I know you say there is no evidence of it and Cameron has got us guarantee's etc. but just looking at history and past experience. what we signed up for in the 70's is a very different Europe to the one we know partake in. why will it be any different, that we agree to stay on conditions, but we end up getting sucked in deeper if we like it or not.

 

There are no legally binding contracts that can't be changed regarding our position in Europe, there are no gaurentee's on anything cameron has "secured" its like the same crap they gave to maggie to sell to the british public to make them feel like they got something. its not a negotiation. Europe has no interest in how we feel, they'll continue on with their plans regardless with us hanging on to the coat tales.

 

If we wanted a proper say in how Europe is to be run we should have been in properly from the start, and if we wanted a proper say now the only way we'd get a proper seat at the table with a working mic is if we dived in feet first and embraced everything fully.

 

This "we're in but only on certain conditions" is a weak position if we're to be taken seriously i think we're either in properly or out properly.

 

How many of us have a mate who wants to be part of group things but always has conditions or issues

"oh i can come out friday night, but i can't make it till 11 and then i can only drink if you buy my beer for me"

"oh i can play football on sunday but you'll have to lend me your kit and i won;t play in goal and i'll be late to the game"

etc etc etc

 

how many of us take bog all notice of that person and carry on regardless but make allowances for him because your mum and his mum are best friends blah blah blah.

 

We're going to be that person...i don't want to be that person

[Jetpilot]

So where's the proof that leaving will be better? I've seen precisely zero facts from that side, other than ifs, coulds and maybes.

 

I have seen zero facts or proof from the stay either, as you say above, its all if buts and maybes, whilst Coldel speaks very eloquently and knowledgeably about the "possible" effects, no one can factually say without a shadow of doubt we will be worse off.

 

So until its done, we dont actually know what trade deals can be negotiated and how the exit will happen and how much it will cost and where the money "saved" will go etc

Edited May 13, 2016 by Jetpilot

[Floydbax]

You sound like Boris Johnson there Floyd

 

Don't know if that's an insult Boris is obviously an intelligent guy but he might also be raving mad

 

I'm more Liberal socialist than Tory TBH. My interest in the EU (as I might have said earlier) comes from when I was at Bournemouth Uni in the late 80's, there was a module we studied called Business in the EEC, as part of my degree in Business studies, which was one of my favourite parts of the course. I also went on a tour of the EEC components with college before that on the HND in Business Studies Travel And Tourism course. That was obviously several decades ago when it was the EEC, which we signed up for, worked and was good for all parties involved.

 

Until fairly recently I was very pro-European Union, but as I have been exposed to more information and done some research due to this referendum I have seen what is going on and I have so far decided I'm in the 'out' camp. I reserve the right to change my mind again if information condusive to that decision comes to me. One thing I find very interesting is that a lot of acquaintances are businessmen, some very wealthy ones and they are ALL for getting out and listening to their conversations on the matter I have to agree with them.

 

I find it quite sad that both sides of the issue are reverting to what I'd call 'American style' politics which are extremely devisive, unnecessarily, excessively so. I thought the British population deserves better than and more respect than that.

[formatzero]

Similar poll on the Supra forum but the leave vote is a good bit higher,nevertheless interesting to see that both forums are for leave !

[Rock_Steady]

Anyone watch the Paxman presented EU documentary last night? Really interesting. Some valuable points made.

[rtbiscuit]

I started but fell asleep, (work related tiredness not the program)

[Adrian@TORQEN]

http://infacts.org/uk-doesnt-send-eu-350m-a-week-or-55m-a-day/

 

'In 2015, Britain actually sent £250 million a week to the EU. After accounting for the money the Brussels sent back to Britain and EU spending we include in our foreign aid target, the net cost was £120 million a week or £17 million a day. Per person, that’s 26p a day – or half the price of a Mars bar.

 

This is a fraction of the benefits we have got from being part of the EU’s single market. And remember that if we wanted to leave the EU but stay in the single market, like Norway, we’d most likely still have to pay a membership fee. Norway’s net payment per person is about the same as ours.'

[samu23]

Not sure if a repost but there are some interesting points in this video, like a lot of people I am still very much on the fence.

 

[rtbiscuit]

Not sure if a repost but there are some interesting points in this video, like a lot of people I am still very much on the fence.

 

 

I need to come back and watch again, when its not 1.30 in the morning.