Brexit 23rd June..?

[rtbiscuit]

This was an interesting watch, I can't verify the facts but it puts the brexit view in a very easy to follow infomercial

 

 

I'm sure coldel will find many holes in it, and much has been said already on the matter.

[rtbiscuit]

The same friend who posted the last video also shared this

 

its nigel making friends in europe

 

[coldel]

Aye its quite a nice compelling video isn't it I mean according to that nothing could possibly go wrong in an exit

 

As you mentioned, some of it is clearly made up as previously discussed, although not heard the bit about the spurious stuff at the end in ditching the pound etc. Didn't realise that had been agreed...must have missed that government announcement

 

That all said, on a serious note, it does bring out the Brit in you, its a much better video than previous rubbish that has been banded around.

[Bockaaarck]

FIAT currency (like the £) in its current state is dead anyway. We'll all be forced to use some form of 'government approved' digital currency like (mm but without the 'freedom' of Bitcoin) anyway.

 

This is being done and will be done on the basis that terrorists or 'bad people' use 'cash' and it can't be traced, so it must be 'bad' and we shouldn't use it. Meaning we'll be driven in to using a currency without any physical value (even notes and coins have some intrinsic physical value in their content).

 

But this is probably for a different thread....

Edited May 11, 2016 by Bockaaarck

[rtbiscuit]

Aye its quite a nice compelling video isn't it I mean according to that nothing could possibly go wrong in an exit

 

As you mentioned, some of it is clearly made up as previously discussed, although not heard the bit about the spurious stuff at the end in ditching the pound etc. Didn't realise that had been agreed...must have missed that government announcement

 

That all said, on a serious note, it does bring out the Brit in you, its a much better video than previous rubbish that has been banded around.

 

I think the leave camp has a far more eloquent voice; I read a comment recently saying that the front faces/voices put across better than the stay camp (ignoring the facts).

 

I don't think the stay camp have quiet got the right salesmen in place yet

 

the leave camp have some very good speakers IDS, Hannan, Farage, Boris (like them of loathe them) they are very good at getting "a" point across

 

I don't think that the likes of Cameron, osbourne and others have had the best sales technique. i think their technique of drawing in big names from the US and Europe has had quiet the effect they wanted, i think the obama thing has possibly pushed people the other way. and the euro leaders telling people that they'd snub the UK if they left is appealing more to the british F you mentality than the "oh no I'm scared, we better stay"

 

We are an unusual group of people; stubborn at times and i think if people push us the wrong way people will vote in protest, not because its the best option but to stick 2 fingers up.

 

Both camps are running a fear based campaign but its being careful not to push the British public to far the wrong way.

 

I saw an interesting video from hannan but i haven't been able to post it as it was a facebook video and can't find it on youtube.

[coldel]

Yes I agree on the 'salesmen' Farage love or loathe him talks a good game on the EU and immigration (although probably has the fiscal knowledge of a small plant hence the reason why he is a protest voters dream but someone you wouldn't let near actually running anything) - Boris is a complete farce and people vote for him because he is a bumbling Mr Bean type character. The sticking two fingers up is often in business terms the worst thing you can do. Burning bridges and all that in business is well known to generally leave the finger flickers in a much worse position financially and frowned upon by the masses, it helps to have some friends out there sometimes...

[Ekona]

I think it's pitiful that Corbyn and Sturgeon have kept their heads so far below the parapet. They want the same thing that CMD does, yet they're not brave enough to actually be out there day after day campaigning for it just in case they lose?

 

And people think they're strong, decent leaders. Actually scratch that, no-one ever said that about Corbyn.

 

 

 

Boris is highly intelligent and normally I'm with him 100%, but not on this. I've found both sides to be pretty duff really: The Stay lot are too quiet and not actually listening to the concerns of the people (don't even get me started on CMD's nonsense about there being war in the EU if we leave from yesterday!), and the Leave gang are just shouting the same overblown nonsense again and again. Both sides are so negative, it's painful.

[rtbiscuit]

I'm not disagreeing with either of you on those points, but there is a large section of the electorate that "if" they vote will vote on gut instinct and who sells the best story. and it is those that may go down the 2 fingers route.

 

Its not how i'm voting, I've made my choice on my long term feeling over Europe and the direction that its going, rightly or Wrongly its the route i think is right. I'm still listening to both sides and it may well be when push comes to shove and i'm stood infront of the voting slip i change my mind. but nothing said at the moment has helped sway it.

 

the cameron argument of all out war i found insulting to my intelligence.

 

You only have to look at Europe at the moment and we're heading that way even if we stay. All those countries in the shengan zone who have suddenly erected fences, enforced guards and stopped free movement to avoid being the next dumping ground of migrants. that kind of behaviour can only escalate with neighbours possibly falling out if the base issue isn't resolved.

[Ekona]

But how does the issue get solved if we don't work together? Is it really fair for us to turn around and say "No, we're not taking anyone, sort it out yourselves" rather than compromise?

 

Merkel made a grave error letting so many in at once, she'll pay for that come election time. It needs to be fairly staggered across the EU.

[coldel]

Exactly what Dan said - there is a mixing of issues here, Syria is a war zone that our press kindly shields us from the realities of because its suits us, there is a serious and genuine humanitarian crisis going on. Hundreds of thousands of civilians who just want to get on with their life, dead, crippled or injured. Then there are people that are genuine work migrants, then there are a tiny minority who are after the benefits (of which there multitudes more that are British born-and-bred but have never paid a penny in income tax either). The press will group them together and the pro exits will shout 'control our borders' but with no plan of how to actually do this (or even try to work out the bureaucratic cost which no doubt everyone will be up in arms about when it starts totting up into the hundreds of millions to implement) - there are probably a dozen steps to any implementation of a policy, but people only look at the first one i.e. control the borders, then ignore the implementation, cost, impact on social wellbeing, humanitarian issues, foreign policy, economic relations, change in legislation, trade rules...the implications are massive.

[rtbiscuit]

Immigration isn't the deciding factor for me for leaving; i don't disagree that the situation is bad, but hwo do you come to a solution when every country effected in the Euro block have all turned into NIMBY's (Not In My Back Yard) where they agree a resolution is needed but aren't willing to take any on. and its all someone elses problem.

 

look at all the fences going up does that look like a group of people who want refugees and migrants to come in?

[Jetpilot]

Sorry to say i dont not think the answer to Syria is just accept the migrants, the terrorists need wiping out so they can go back home, that is the most positive thing we (the eu) can do. How it is done is a completely different kettle of fish of course.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Jetpilot

[coldel]

Its a civil war, although 'terrorists' exist in the country and are part of the conflict, it was born out of militia vs the government - the legals I imagine in terms of taking sides in some way must be a bit more difficult to deal with. No Big Uncle Sam invasion is possible as far as I can see?

Edited May 11, 2016 by coldel

[Ekona]

We pick a side and run with it, the liberals get angry and say it's an illegal war. We don't pick a side and try and stay neutral, the war mongers demand we do something.

 

No government can win any more. The hysteria over Iraq/Afghanistan has put paid to any government actually doing the sensible, obvious and right thing any more.

[docwra]

The terrorists need wiping out

 

As Col has said, this is probably the best example of a "Who's the bad guy?" conflict ever.

 

It started because a lot of the population were very strongly opposed to President Assad, claiming his government were undemocratic and unjust.

They went on to form the Free Syria Army which initially the UK government supported, even suggesting that we would help them overthrow Assad due to his "chemical and biological weapons", despite him having support from Hezbollah, our enemy. Apparently.

Around the same time ISIL declared support for the FSA, and we considered helping them out as well.

 

Fast forward a couple of years and the UK is now in support of Assad, against the FSA and ISIL still consider Hezbollah to be a terror group, but are still condemning some of Assads actions so arent entirely on board.

The US have declared war on ISIL, are very against Assad and Hezbollah and actively back the FSA.

Russia are in support of anyone who will fight against ISIL (including the FSA) but also support Assad and Hezbollah.

 

Thats before you bring Iran, the Kurds, Shia's and Sunnis, Al Nusra, Turkey, Saudi or Qatar into it.

 

So who are the terrorists? ****ed if I know

Edited May 11, 2016 by docwra

[Jetpilot]

Absolutely agree with all the above, but getting their homes/countries safe, some how, is far better than whos going to accept how many and when imho.

 

I just see no future in mass migration of epic proportions to the "civilised" west, its just not sustainable no matter who is in charge.

[docwra]

Its something Ive discussed and thought long and hard about and TBH the only solution I can see is to leave them to it.

 

Any intervention by the West will be turned into propaganda by Islamic Fundamentalists, any military action from remote locations will result in civilian casualties, any feet on ground will result in military casualties ........... and unlike WWII or The Falklands there isnt any real endgame, history has taught us its impossible to wipe out guerrilla groups and attacking terror or religious groups just increases their power amongst followers.

 

You literally cant win, so why even bother?

[Ekona]

Trump has the right idea, just build a wall.

 

 

[Jetpilot]

Absolutely, its a no win, but mass migration is a no win either, so you could argue, why bother letting them in, leave them to it too.

 

I dont mean that as a inflammatory comment to your valid points, but there has to be a better solution than either scenario. Its like a disease, pointless just treating the effects, you have to tackle the cause to make it stop.

 

I guess its easy to say, what was the point in getting involved in Iraq and Afghanistan, are things better off for our intervention, well, we really cant say what would have happened if we had left Saddam to it and same goes for the Taliban. A topic for another time i guess.

[gsexr]

The immigration issue is played out in a way that makes good headlines. In reality it does not matter how many people choose to come and live here if we supply the infrastructure to support the numbers. and there`s the rub... we don`t... We cant because we don`t know how many to provide for.... simple really isn't it.

Saying they contribute which helps our economy is also not strictly true if they are in low paid work and sending money home and not spending much here.

 

We are the 5th richest economy so Money should not be an issue its just about letting us have enough for what we pay in to keep us happy. All the Austerity rubbish we have been sold is an excuse to make us feel we need to tighten our belts why still paying loads into the system. Who is getting it?

 

The brexit vote will be as much about feelings towards issues like this as much as anything else.

 

As i said before a change is as good as a rest so why not vote for one... could be interesting

[JetSet]

simple really isn't it.

Saying they contribute which helps our economy is also not strictly true if they are in low paid work and sending money home and not spending much here.

 

This is not that big a deal with EU immigrants who tend to bring their wives and children with them simply because they can. It's the ones outside the EU who tend to send money home because their families can't get in.

 

Anyway, there have been some absurd arguments from both sides this last couple of weeks which is turning the whole thing into a farce.

 

Pete

[Floydbax]

I to am of the opinion that migration is pretty much unimportant in the issue at hand. With my cynical head on I'd have said that it's being shouted about as being one of the main issues because of Mr Farage who is part of the Out camp. If the 'In' lot can persuade people that voting out is a vote for agreeing with someone they have already completely vilified in the media as being a racist then they get those votes. This despite Farage having more knowledge and experience of the EU at the sharp end than either of the top members of either of the official campaigns. Luckily so far they have failed to isolate by association, Farage has avoided any racist gaffes and as far as I have seen made some extremely good points in his own out campaign.

I studied Business In The EEC at Uni in the 80's and was very pro Europe until we were taken deep into something we never signed up for. We did well with the EEC, not so well with the European Superstate. There's a lot, a real lot of ridiculous scare stories being spread, I can't believe it but I guess that's the way those in that kind of power look at the rest of us, as dim. I hope the majority are not and see through the bull and we get out of this terrible, corrupt waste of our money.

[coldel]

I would imagine there is very little swing left in the voting, it just seems like one of those things where 80% of the leaves will shout leave till they are blue in the face even if someone pointed out the errors in all their 'facts' they will shrug their shoulders and just say leave regardless - same for stay. There may be a few that are open to being pursuaded but I doubt its many.

[Sargara]

In reality it does not matter how many people choose to come and live here if we supply the infrastructure to support the numbers. and there`s the rub... we don`t... We cant because we don`t know how many to provide for.... simple really isn't it.

 

While I agree with your overall post I cant help but disagree with this point.

 

You can have all the figures and funding you want but at the end of the day we are a tiny landmass in the grand scheme of things. We cant fit everything in indefinitely. To turn everywhere into depressing urban areas just because we need to catch up with immigration numbers should not be the solution, controlling immigration (both EU and external) so we aren't running a net pop growth should be. Lets have a stable population instead of a constantly growing one for a a bit?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/29/uk-population-expected-to-rise-by-almost-10-million-in-25-years

[Kev T]

Those are scary big numbers which are usually on the conservative side ( i am thinking of the last Labour Governments prediction of only a few thousand Polish coming to settle in Britain !! ) one also wonders whether that also takes into account Turkey and the other new countries coming soon adding another 88 million more bodies into the mix !

 

If we don't leave and take control of the whole mess i despair for the future our children and grandchildren.