coldel Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 PS I am just playing all this back from 'as independent a view' as I can find online, I am no top EU legislative economist! But with just say 1 hours searching you can make a much more informed vote on this than just defaulting to voting 'to keep the immigrants out' You see this is why i didnt want to discuss my "reasons", i didnt mention immigration, yet you automatically assume its to do with immigration. Nhs tourism apparently costs £200 million, it may be a drop in the ocean, but its 200 million i would prefer used on uk residents Sorry, I wasn't quoting you as using the immigration issue at all or assuming such - more that when people effectively think 'I am voting out because immigration is the cause of all the countries woes' is a good enough reason to actually vote that way, which I wasn't meaning to say you were saying as much in your post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 The problem is, if you vote out, thats what people will automatically assume, in reality, it probably makes no real difference to me either way, i would just prefer the country run by the government we elect, rather than a bunch of unelected people sat in Brussels making sh*t up on a daily basis which we all have to abide by and can quite easily live without, such as Eu tyre markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 Straight bananas etc. the bureaucracy that comes out of Brussels I can live with - I am more concerned about what I am giving out in one hand whilst taking with the other - ultimately i want to be better off. If saving £500m on benefits for migrants costs £50bn in export duties to me there is no sense trading one for the other. I want to see a business plan for the Leave idea, where is it? At the moment they are saying they don't want any of the Norway, Swiss or Turkey models, but there is no alternative put forwards, its not as if they haven't had time to do something this has been coming for some time now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Nhs tourism apparently costs £200 million, it may be a drop in the ocean, but its 200 million i would prefer used on uk residents But if it costs us £500m to leave in lost trade and taxes, then the NHS is actually worse off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 In all fairness, would you actually believe any figures given to you by government? Its good to see someone who is actually researching the facts as best as possible though and admire your enthusiasm, rightly or wrongly it will be a simpler choice for the less educated (me included). I think we did fine before and will do fine again, it would be difficult to predict the possible increase in british business if we cant just source goods from the eu, it may be a welcome boost to british trading/business's. I wonder what the rest of europe think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Ultimately the market is economy driven, and people just want the cheapest stuff (for the most part, there are of course exceptions). No-one buys British now, they just buy the cheap tat or they moan at the price, that won't change regardless. Except more people moaning because everything is more expensive, not just the British goods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Nhs tourism apparently costs £200 million, it may be a drop in the ocean, but its 200 million i would prefer used on uk residents But if it costs us £500m to leave in lost trade and taxes, then the NHS is actually worse off. First off yes, but what about long term? There are a whole host of things i dont pretend to understand or have knowledge about on the subject, i doubt anyone on here really knows the true implications, my vote is out and my reasons given whether its right or wrong or anyone agrees or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Coldel knows it You see this is why i didnt want to discuss my "reasons", i didnt mention immigration, yet you automatically assume its to do with immigration. Nhs tourism apparently costs £200 million, it may be a drop in the ocean, but its 200 million i would prefer used on uk residents And how much do you think the million odd grey haired Brits in Spain cost their medical system? Or the godknows how many drunken bastards that go there "on holiday" solely to try and get alcohol poisoning? Its reckoned our net profit from EU immigrants is anywhere between £2bn and £5bn a year, and now Dave the Alien has negotiated new terms on in work and out of work benefits for immigrants that will be even more. As with many things, this is likely to be decided by whichever red top paper shouts loud enough, and sadly not people who run European businesses and actually understand this stuff. Like me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 ^^ Exactly, a subject in the scheme of things i know f*ck all about I dont pretend to, my reasons were asked and given in the essence of the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Fair play to you mate, I dont think many will admit that and will just vote on hearsay. Not the good one with Mylene in either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 The problem is, if you vote out, thats what people will automatically assume, in reality, it probably makes no real difference to me either way, i would just prefer the country run by the government we elect, rather than a bunch of unelected people sat in Brussels making sh*t up on a daily basis which we all have to abide by and can quite easily live without, such as Eu tyre markings. All policy is actually passed by elected people, the beauracts draft legislation, they don't approve it. Making some regulation centrally actually reduces effort. EU tyre markings? There's not a day goes by where I don't think of the injustices these cause In what world does it make more sense to have different standards (not just on tyres) for every single country in Europe, than having one standard across the continent? Why do something once, when you can do it 28 times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 One example of many, currently at 60% to leave, 21% to stay, go play with someone else i am not the only one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 One example of many, currently at 60% to leave, 21% to stay, go play with someone else i am not the only one You're dead right about the amount wanting to leave, it's certainly not just you. My Dad's been on about it today, specifically migration. The irony is, he freely admits his most reliable staff are Polish and fumes when he can't get hold of them for seasonal work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I actually managed to convince my old man today that leaving would be a bad idea. He's as UKIP as they come, so if I can succeed with him I can succeed with anyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodder Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I'm unsure to be honest. Colder seems to have he same thoughts as me. The problem with "we were alright before" attitude is the fact before we were reliant on the old empire for trade then the commonwealth which we then turned our back on as we could no longer buy raw materials cheaply and sell the manufactured goods back at a highly inflated rate. The problem with staying in the EU for me is the fact the core partners are in it for political reasons and not trade, Britain needs trade but not closer political ties. I did read an interesting BBC article on this over the weekend which made a lot of sense.... That said I wouldn't trust a balanced view from them either so I need to research all the key points and form my own decision Those that want a pro and con list are out of luck as that's subjective. Do your own research and come to your own conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 We seemed to do fine before Not really, the country was in serious decline in the years leading up to our joining, inflation was over 20% the year we joined, the coal, steel and car industry was either outdated or beset by industrial action, the country under both Heath and Wilson was a complete mess. I'm not saying that joining the EU made things better but the idea that we were doing alright compared to countries already inside the EU is a fallacy. That's one of the reasons we joined. So far, I'm for staying. Pete 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glrnet Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I actually managed to convince my old man today that leaving would be a bad idea. He's as UKIP as they come, so if I can succeed with him I can succeed with anyone! I watched Farage and Anna Soubry (Business Minister) discussing the pros and cons on Channel 4 News tonight, Farage did nothing to convince me to that leaving is a good thing, all he could suggest was that we would be "Indpependent". I'm going to need more of a convicing "argument" than that I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian: "What did the EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital. All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future. Simon Sweeney, Lecturer in international political economy, University of York" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 ...and somewhat ironically the European Court of Human Rights was the UKs idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) EU referendum: Out vote 'would risk jobs', say bosses http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35636838 What leaving the EU could cost travellers http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/comment/what-would-brexit-mean-for-travellers/ Edited February 23, 2016 by Adrian@TORQEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyder Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian: "What did the EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital. All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future. Simon Sweeney, Lecturer in international political economy, University of York" Good post Adrian, out of interest anyone know if the Swiss have issues with any of the above? I've been there a few times and it always seems like they cope alright being on the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sipar69 Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Stay for me. I don't buy the Daily Fail argument that the EU is a bad thing that's given us nothing but immigration and daft regulations. It may not be perfect, but I'm convinced we'd be much worse off out than in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 23, 2016 Author Share Posted February 23, 2016 The Swiss are In in all but name, they are part of the european economic area and have a number of bi lateral agreements with the EU but to have those they need to pretty much act as if in the EU which includes the free movement of EU citizens. A couple of years ago the Swiss had a referendum and decided that they wanted that to stop, but now the EU is in the process of ditching all those agreements if they Swiss go through with it so could see the Swiss on shaky ground in a few years time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Adrians post reminds me very much of this classic sketch [media] [/media] Pete 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Lets be honest the EU hasnt "given" us anything we as UK taxpayers bought and paid for it , the regulations they came up with may or may not be a good thing but its us that paid for them Of course businesses would suffer if we left the EU but that doesnt mean that the "man in the street" would. "Brussels" is very costly to the UK tax payer the choice is whether people think that they get good value for money or not 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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