Brexit 23rd June..?

[rtbiscuit]

I'd buy into that argument if I believed savings will go on the NHS (amongst other things) rather than a cut in corporation tax.

 

Also, politicians in Brussels are elected. That's just a flat out lie.

 

I agree, i might vote out, but i still don't believe they'll spend the money wisely. governments are past masters at wasting cash

 

our biggest issue politically is no one has a long term view that extends beyond 5 years and an election. they only plan on what will get short term goals and a election.

 

for things like the NHS and Education it needs serious overhauling and plans agreed across parties that can then be implemented over 10-20 years. becuase inevitably any major change will see things worsen before they improve.

 

But as they are all out for themselves it won't happen.

[Ekona]

And reducing the national debt isnt a good thing?

 

Im not saying that I agree or disagree.....

I completely agree, it would be much better served doing that. However, it makes the assumption that we'd have all that money spare, which we wouldn't. Certainly in the short term any spare money would go towards the cost of extracting ourselves from Europe and possibly propping up the financial sector when the pound plummets. Longer term, like 10-30 years, then maybe we'd have some of that back. We also might not, as we'd have to still obey the EU regs to trade with them which would have a financial expectation to them. It would be worth it though, as we'd get more out than we put it, just like it is now...

[The G Man]

Any old chance to have a dig at the awful tories/Dave , how quickly people forget just what a wonderful position Labour left this country in and as for the mighty snp, with their huge 1.4 million votes only a couple of football match attendances more than the green party and imagine our lives as motorists if they had as many seats as snp.

 

You had your chance to go independent and bottled it, lets hope the UK doesnt

 

 

Oh yeah the motorist

[RobPhoboS]

http://www.dw.com/en/ttip-reading-room-a-small-step-toward-transparency/a-19012651

[gsexr]

Your gonna get shafted if we stay in or if we leave so why not just take the chance for change.

 

Its as good as a rest

[Ekona]

No, that's not how it works. If you want to change, then you need to supply the info as to how it would be better!

[docwra]

anyone noticed how the closer we've got, the less coverage of the migrant crisis there is? I don't see anything on the news anymore about calais etc.. daily mail has stuck all the isis terrorist @*!# at the bottom of its pages, the news seems to have changed.

 

Anyone noticed how some people just read memes on Facebook and then recycle without checking if its accurate?

 

The BBC, as we all know is the mouthpiece of the Tories and:

 

14 hours ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-eu-36205211

15 hours ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36208781

Yesterday: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36202490

Day before: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36188558

4 days ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36178582

4 days ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36182511

 

And anyway, why use UK based news services these days? Russia Today, Al Jazeera and France24 are all much more even handed.

[coldel]

The £350m is the basis of the argument to leave but unfortunately the economy doesn't work like that, there is no status quo if we leave, all other things do not remain constant and we do not suddenly pocket £xbn. For a start we will need to divert a significant proportion back into the industries that currently receive EU subsidies, our agriculture sector would collapse without these funds for instance, these are not small amounts. Then you have economic instability, which will pose a high risk to our growth levels whilst we work everything out which could take anywhere between 5-10 years - the instability will impact the capital available to the country but who knows what that will be. The above post (sorry Bradders!) is just simple propaganda nonsense.

[coldel]

...and as a side note the £350m figure is factually incorrect, the UK has never paid that to the EU. The Gross cost is that, but the rebate is applied before payment is made. But hey £350m sounds much better right

[coldel]

anyone noticed how the closer we've got, the less coverage of the migrant crisis there is? I don't see anything on the news anymore about calais etc.. daily mail has stuck all the isis terrorist @*!# at the bottom of its pages, the news seems to have changed.

 

Anyone noticed how some people just read memes on Facebook and then recycle without checking if its accurate?

 

The BBC, as we all know is the mouthpiece of the Tories and:

 

14 hours ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk...ogs-eu-36205211

15 hours ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-36208781

Yesterday: http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-36202490

Day before: http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-36188558

4 days ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-36178582

4 days ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-36182511

 

And anyway, why use UK based news services these days? Russia Today, Al Jazeera and France24 are all much more even handed.

 

I agree on media bias, I am really getting to the end of my tether with the Evening Standard and Metro running endless Interview with Zac and double page spreads and giving Sadiq Khan nothing - to the point its almost embarrassing how biased the reporting is.

[Stutopia]

... Russia Today, Al Jazeera and France24 are all much more even handed.

 

I know what you mean about mixing up your viewing and reading by including foreign sources, and I totally agree, but Russia Today is directly Russian government funded propaganda. They don't even bother to pretend it's not just the media wing of the Kremlin

[Stutopia]

Trump goes Brexit

 

http://gu.com/p/4tqmt?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

Expect no one to get as excited as they did about Obama, but equally no one of sound mind is taking any notice of the confused lunatic in the corner of the pub shouting at chihuahuas for being Mexican

[Ekona]

I can imagine a few people's heads exploding right about now

[Ekona]

Incidentally, last night I put a fiver on Trump to win the presidency election in November. At 3/1, I reckon that's a pretty good shout for some easy cash.

[Stutopia]

I'd have given you 5/1 (on a fiver!), I think the republicans have just given up now Trump is the last man standing and effectively their nomination. He galvanises core Republicans but I expect him to alienate anyone who is even vaguely close to the centre ground!

 

#teambernie

[Stutopia]

So much for the EU not being a democracy, abuse of the democratic process is going on right here at home.

 

http://gu.com/p/4jvvg?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[glrnet]

Incidentally, last night I put a fiver on Trump to win the presidency election in November. At 3/1, I reckon that's a pretty good shout for some easy cash.

if it's such a pretty good shout a fiver doesn't seem much to me you old skinflint😄

[Ekona]

I'm not that brave

 

Chris Evans was saying yesterday on R2 that all his Yank friends are expecting Trump to walk the election, on the basis that he's going to galvanise all those people that don't normally vote to get off their armchair and down to a polling station. And you know what, I can believe it too.

[grahamc]

Chris Evans has friends?

[coldel]

Trump goes Brexit

 

http://gu.com/p/4tqm...re_iOSApp_Other

 

Expect no one to get as excited as they did about Obama, but equally no one of sound mind is taking any notice of the confused lunatic in the corner of the pub shouting at chihuahuas for being Mexican

 

No doubt next he will be asking us to build a moat around the UK...

[glrnet]

I'm not that brave

 

Chris Evans was saying yesterday on R2 that all his Yank friends are expecting Trump to walk the election, on the basis that he's going to galvanise all those people that don't normally vote to get off their armchair and down to a polling station. And you know what, I can believe it too.

Exactly this. What ever we say about how dumb or stupid he is, with regard to to his "marketing" campaign for want of a better phrase he has deliberately set out to attract those who have not/don't usually vote by appealing to their particular "ideals". Question is, will he dump them once he's in?

[Bockaaarck]

This article on the the TTIP deal is very interesting reading

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ttip-leaks-shocking-what-are-they-eu-us-deal-a7010121.html

 

is this the kind of Europe we want to join?

 

This is a genuine question.

 

Do you think a UK - US trade deal negotiated by the Tories, known for their love of privatisation and deregulation of markets, would genuinely secure a more favourable deal for the UK, as an individual nation, than as part of the EU block?

 

Cameron and the Conservatives love TTIP

[Bockaaarck]

Britains financial contribution to the EU is something in the region of £8.5 billion a year, which seems a lot. However; that is (on average) only 0.5% of our GDP per year.

 

Also, if we take in to account the amount of money that flows back in to the UK in terms of spending. Money that goes to beneficiaries or to government departments. The true cost of our membership is about £6.5 billion, less than .5% of our GDP.

 

The CBI (Confederation of British Industry), hardly a woolly pro-Brussels 'love-in', indicates that, year on year. The direct benefit to the UK economy is something in the region of £70 billion a year.

 

The U.K. contributed less to the EU (per capita) than Germany (who have taken on massive immigration), Sweden, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Belgium.

 

Freedom of movement, freedom of trade, protection (via rules and regulation) for the working man / woman. Pan European regulation and governance over finance and banking (remember / imagine how bad it was / would be without it). The ability to learn and earn across Europe with ease. While receiving health protection, employment protection, whether you're in Paris, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Berlin, Lisbon etc.

 

Protection of consumer rights in terms of food quality, your dish washer, your tv, the quality of the brakes slowing down your 350Z / 370Z, the quality of food your children / grand children are eating.

 

Protection and strength of negotiation on international trade with China, Asia-Pacific and the US (think TTIP and the French (and others) saying 'Non!' Based on TTIP's attempt to reduce/remove quality commitments on food etc).

 

Cameron wants us to leave the EU, he wants you to vote leave because he wants you to think it'll damage him, or go against him 'looking after his buddies' in business.

 

Let me remind you, Cameron has already indicated he's not going to stay his full term as PM. He's going to leave that role and return to being a normal MP. If we leave the EU, leave that protection and regulation that protects us all.

 

Who do you think is going to get some very handsome paying non- executive directorships or consultancy fees (from the finance and banking world and from 'big business').

 

When we've stepped away from that protection and regulation. While some people are being patted on the back and getting millions in directorships. How is it going to feel, when as a small business owner, a hard working employee. Your pips are being squeezed until they squeak because they made it possible for big business to do that to you?

Edited May 8, 2016 by Bockaaarck

[Kev T]

Devastating MORI poll shows Europe's peoples share British rage over EU

 

 

 

 

When David Cameron first announced the UK’s referendum on Europe in 2013, the reaction from EU capitals was disdain. Brexit would be a disastrous error for Britain – perhaps suicidal – but Europe would brush off the effects.

As I reported at the time, Spain's foreign minister José Manuel Garcia-Margallo told us that Brexit would lead to "terrible devastation" of our industries, leaving nothing left but "a few petty bankers" in xenophobic isolation.

"David Cameron must understand he cannot slow the speed of the EU cruiser," came the finger-waving admonition from Madrid.

 

 

 

The penny has since begun to drop that Brexit fall-out might be very serious for them as well.

Yet even as recently as this February the prevailing view was still that the referendum saga was largely a British affair, to do with the idiosyncrasies of an island people, or some such peculiarly British pathology, or to do with the post-imperial hang-ups of the English – an irritating canard that inverts the truth, since those Britons with an imperial reflex often rediscover their natural home in the EU power structures.

This was still the view of the policy elites even after the Schengen fire had been raging for months. There was a strange reluctance to accept what has been obvious for a long time, that comparable feelings of irritation with Brussels have been welling in France, Italy, Holland, Scandinavia, and Germany itself.

They still could not see that the EU had over-reached disastrously, or that it had breached the historical contract with Europe’s nation states, or that broader contagion was a mounting threat to their own interests.

 

 

 

Above all, there was a refusal to acknowledge that great numbers of people across Europe have views all too like the British, and also think the EU Project is out of control.

The Justice Secretary Michael Gove may have gone too far last month in proclaiming a European Spring, or a “democratic liberation†of the Continent, but he was surely right to discern the rumblings of revolt, for that is exactly what the latest Ipsos MORI poll reveals.

The survey is astonishing, even for those of us who have for years been following the disastrous misgovernment of the eurozone, a self-induced slump that ultimately lasted longer than the European leg of the Great Depression.

It shows that 60pc of Italians want a referendum of their own, and that 48pc would now vote to leave the EU. If you had suggested ten years ago that such a set of views might ever be possible in Italy – I know, because I tried – you would have been laughed into silence.

 

 

 

Everybody agreed – did they not? – that Italians were happy to delegate their government to the mandarins in Brussels because they do not trust their own corrupt and dysfunctional elites.

As a long-time devotee of the 19th century Italian poet Giacomo Leopardi, I never fell for the argument that there is no such thing as an Italian nation, no collective sense of patriotic feeling.

There most certainly is such a nation, and it is in a state of risorgimento right now. I will be writing over coming days about the traumatic effects of monetary union for Italy: suffice to say that Rome will determine the fate of the euro.

 

 

 

 

The MORI poll shows that 58pc of the French also want their own referendum, and 41pc say they would vote to leave. Swexit sentiment in Sweden is running at 39pc.

But what most surprised me is that half of those surveyed in countries making up 80pc of the EU population think that Brexit would set off a domino effect, and that it would do more damage to the European Union than to Britain itself.

Specifically, 51pc said Brexit would have a negative impact on the EU economy, compared to just 36pc who thought it would be bad for Britain’s economy. This really is an upset.

 

 

 

It suggests that very large numbers of people on the Continent have reached their own damning verdict on EU pieties and on the EMU construct, perhaps because they know that their own youth have been flocking to London to work, as if were a new Manhattan.

A majority in Italy, Poland, the US, India, and South Africa actually thought the British economy would fare better once it broke free from the EU. This too is a shocker.

The MORI poll is a cannon shot across the bows of Brussels and the EU nomenklatura in a string of countries. They are not up against a truculent Britain, as they suppose: they are up against their own record and their own peoples.

[coldel]

Ah the beauty of reading too much into a pro brexit newspapers own biased reporting of data - wonderful

 

So, just tackling a few things in turn. If you locate the Telegraphs actual report, you can see it has no balance and that they are trying to sensationalise one or two countries out of kilter results. They highlight France and Italy in there, but not Germany? Why is that? Its because 60% would say they don't need a referendum - a rather large majority over those saying yes they need one. Same story for Hungary, Sweden, Poland and Spain who are the others listed all roughly 60%-40%

 

Again the vote to leave %s, highest for France and Italy, but more than two thirds in Poland, Spain, Germany Hungary all would vote to stay.

 

There is huge danger in taking as read a newspapers 'interpretation' of research data. I notice that they didnt even state who they spoke to? I am assuming that they were residents of the eight countries featured in the charts showing the above two stats? What about representation from the other 20 countries (19 excluding the UK)?

 

How can you state 'Europes people share rage' when in fact in most measures only two of the eight countries featured actually show that, and that the whole of Europe is not even represented?

 

It then mentions that Italy Poland India(?) South Africa(?) US(?) think Britain would do better? By how much was this found? Where did India US and SA views come from I thought we were talking about Europeans.

 

If I were to interpret the results it would simply say:

 

1 - 6 out of 8 countries spoken to in the research would prefer not to have a referendum

2 - Any country that did hold a referendum would most likely see a stay result, with the exception of Italy where there is not a significant difference between the stay and leave options

3 - A third of EU people in the survey felt Britain leaving the EU would make no difference to the EU

4 - 40% think that it would have a slightly negative effect

 

Sorry I know that sounds boring, but hey the difference between interpreting data and writing a news article eh