Jetpilot Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) I didnt ask if you were scared, I said your just regurgitating all the scare tactics from the media if we leave, pound dropping, extra cost, tax rates, blah blah blah. I have never claimed to have the knowledge, but your just doing your usual, spouting opinion, which on the most part is useful and valued opinion formed from knowledge and experience (tyres, suspension set ups etc), but you have no knowledge beyond what the media is telling you, its just opinion, same with probably 99% of the country. Some economists say we will be fine, some dont, who is right or wrong? I dont believe you, me or anyone else on this thread truly knows. Edited April 27, 2016 by Jetpilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sipar69 Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) I always give Col likes, he talketh much sense! #teamlikeback more like #teamreacharound Stay on topic I *think* I am going to vote stay - still the Leave campaign are saying 'take control' but refuse to say of what... Isn't it obvious? Laws, Courts, Human rights, Trade, Environment, Borders, Democracy. Take your pick, or come up with your own. Do some research. It's pretty embarrassing to vote for the status quo and allow Brussels to think for you because you can't think for yourself. Think 10, 20 or 30 years ahead, what the In & Out campaigners say is 100% guff and irrelevance. Look at the EU performance now, where it's going, and how it's performed in the past. Engage critical thinking, come to a conclusion. Base your vote on that. Sorry. You're wrong. I don't claim to know much abut much, but I do know about the justice system because I've spent my entire working life in it. One of the greatest con tricks the mass media has played on the general public is the idea that our system of justice is dictated by the EU. We have one of if not the most professional, impartial, efficient and, crucially, independent systems of law and justice in the World. Any suggestion that it will somehow improve by leaving the EU is rubbish based on ignorance of how our laws, courts and judges work. Edited April 26, 2016 by sipar69 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G1en Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 I havn't had chance to watch any news or read up on any arguments so will probably end up not voting as i dont have enough understanding for either side BUT.... Can someone answer this What little i have seen, Cameron is all for staying in and even got his buddy Obama to back him up If the country vote to leave, he is still in charge right running a goverment and having to sort things he doesnt believe are in best interests? Egg on face or would he strp down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Sorry. You're wrong. I don't claim to know much abut much, but I do know about the justice system because I've spent my entire working life in it. One of the greatest con tricks the mass media has played on the general public is the idea that our system of justice is dictated by the EU. We have one of if not the most professional, impartial, efficient and, crucially, independent systems of law and justice in the World. Any suggestion that it will somehow improve by leaving the EU is rubbish based on ignorance of how our laws, courts and judges work. It's fairly clear that the European Court of Human Rights is more or less the same things as the European Union (it isn't). Forget the Council of Europe, you never hear anything about them these days and it's not like we were member founders (we were) and it existed long before the EU (it did). It's right there in black and white that all these "institutions" have Europe in their name. Which, thanks to Teresa May, we know is bad. It's bad because of Abu Hamza, who the EU loves, and the reason the EU keeps stopping our government from ending terror (which it doesn't). I havn't had chance to watch any news or read up on any arguments so will probably end up not voting as i dont have enough understanding for either side BUT.... Can someone answer this What little i have seen, Cameron is all for staying in and even got his buddy Obama to back him up If the country vote to leave, he is still in charge right running a goverment and having to sort things he doesnt believe are in best interests? Egg on face or would he strp down? He'd be under enormous pressure to step down. He'd have no mandate if the people rejected his advice on such a crucial matter and voted against him. That said, he's already survived having relations with a dead animal, so it's entirely possible he'd sit tight for a while and hope the news agenda gets bored of pressuring him and moves on to a celebrity-sex-super-injunction story instead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 My concern on staying in if we vote Bremain; is that its basically going to green light our acceptance of a full federal Europe and we will just disappear into it. we've never had a serious voice in the EU and we certainly won't if we stay. if I'm honest I don't think our negotiation abilities improve if we stay or go. things may be tough to start with if we leave, but long term in the EU if we stay could it be worse? I struggle to believe Cameron when even he doesn't believe in the EU even he said in the past if we can't get the best deal for reform we're better off out and now he's flogging us a product even he doesn't fully believe in IDS gave an interesting interview on radio 4 on Monday I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Let's face it, no matter what we'll be OK. We always are. Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glrnet Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Let's face it, no matter what we'll be OK. We always are. Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk "We are Millwall, everyone hates us" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 I always give Col likes, he talketh much sense! #teamlikeback more like #teamreacharound Stay on topic I *think* I am going to vote stay - still the Leave campaign are saying 'take control' but refuse to say of what... Isn't it obvious? Laws, Courts, Human rights, Trade, Environment, Borders, Democracy. Take your pick, or come up with your own. Do some research. It's pretty embarrassing to vote for the status quo and allow Brussels to think for you because you can't think for yourself. Think 10, 20 or 30 years ahead, what the In & Out campaigners say is 100% guff and irrelevance. Look at the EU performance now, where it's going, and how it's performed in the past. Engage critical thinking, come to a conclusion. Base your vote on that. Has anyone voting out read the official webpage? None of it actually says how and what they want control of. Borders, Environment etc none of this is mentioned, you have just listed out a list of things you 'want' to think you have control of without actually knowing what the Leave campaign have said they will take control of. How can you have a Free Trade Agreement whilst closing borders, that contradicts everything that Free Trade stands for and Free Trade (of which there are many types of different ways of doing this) is about the only thing they do mention that they want to instigate. Engage critical thinking is right, assuming that you can 'take control' of your list by exiting the EU is fundamentally incorrect, plenty of research to be done there my friend. Free trade does not equal open borders. You do not need one, to have the other. Where did you get such an notion? All Free trade is, is trade with no barriers. Tariffs or restrictions, etc. That doesn't mean you can go and live in the country your country happens to have a FTA with. And "Taking Control" if we left is exactly what the UK would get, there's no assumption involved. The UK leaves, the EU would no longer dictate any area of British Laws, Courts, Trade, etc. Who else would do it? I'm confused why you would be in any doubt. Who else would take control if we left the EU? And no, I haven't read the Out campaigns website or literature, nor the In campaign. I've lived in the EU, I've lived in an independant UK. I don't need In's & Out's "informing" me. All the information you need is out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 I always give Col likes, he talketh much sense! #teamlikeback more like #teamreacharound Stay on topic I *think* I am going to vote stay - still the Leave campaign are saying 'take control' but refuse to say of what... Isn't it obvious? Laws, Courts, Human rights, Trade, Environment, Borders, Democracy. Take your pick, or come up with your own. Do some research. It's pretty embarrassing to vote for the status quo and allow Brussels to think for you because you can't think for yourself. Think 10, 20 or 30 years ahead, what the In & Out campaigners say is 100% guff and irrelevance. Look at the EU performance now, where it's going, and how it's performed in the past. Engage critical thinking, come to a conclusion. Base your vote on that. Sorry. You're wrong. I don't claim to know much abut much, but I do know about the justice system because I've spent my entire working life in it. One of the greatest con tricks the mass media has played on the general public is the idea that our system of justice is dictated by the EU. We have one of if not the most professional, impartial, efficient and, crucially, independent systems of law and justice in the World. Any suggestion that it will somehow improve by leaving the EU is rubbish based on ignorance of how our laws, courts and judges work. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/14/uk-obliged-judgments-of-european-courts-official-document-from-m/ Yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsexr Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Stay in or leave either way it will be an excuse to make us pay. We`re dammed if we do and we`re dammed if we dont So Simples really Change is as good as a rest.... Vote to leave The fact that the rest of Europe wants us to stay in is because they will have a large chunk of dosh missing without us plus it could well be a domino effect for more to follow. Obama wants us in to give himself a foothold and somewhere to keep his warplanes Chance in a lifetime to make a change and this country will make it work if we do because they have no choice. Stay in and we will have to put up with everything Europe throws at us because we will have no choice. It will be seen as us crying wolf. Grasp the nettle people and be bold. Short term pain and long term gain. We are the second biggest contributor to the EU. Think what we could do with that money staying here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Yeah we could spend that on drugs and hookers and squander the rest Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Talking about war planes... http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/25/europe/us-deploys-fighter-jets-to-romania/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 The US only has the US best interest at heart; I don't trust their understanding of international current affairs, every single time without doubt when they've stuck their oar in they've either made it worse or turned it in to a complete turdfest. I found the back of the queue comment interesting as far as i'm aware the queue length is currently 1 and that the TTIP with the EU and its taken 7 years because they're trying to find common ground with 27 countries. should take a lot less to negotiate with 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 http://www.engadget.com/2016/04/25/eu-invests-in-quantum-computing/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 The US only has the US best interest at heart; I don't trust their understanding of international current affairs, every single time without doubt when they've stuck their oar in they've either made it worse or turned it in to a complete turdfest. I found the back of the queue comment interesting as far as i'm aware the queue length is currently 1 and that the TTIP with the EU and its taken 7 years because they're trying to find common ground with 27 countries. should take a lot less to negotiate with 1. The total number of countries in line won't change though, it'll still be 28. There'll just be an extra deal to do. The 1 deal for the 27 and then the 1 for the 1. I don't disagree the US looks out exclusively for itself, but which country doesn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sipar69 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 (edited) I always give Col likes, he talketh much sense! #teamlikeback more like #teamreacharound Stay on topic I *think* I am going to vote stay - still the Leave campaign are saying 'take control' but refuse to say of what... Isn't it obvious? Laws, Courts, Human rights, Trade, Environment, Borders, Democracy. Take your pick, or come up with your own. Do some research. It's pretty embarrassing to vote for the status quo and allow Brussels to think for you because you can't think for yourself. Think 10, 20 or 30 years ahead, what the In & Out campaigners say is 100% guff and irrelevance. Look at the EU performance now, where it's going, and how it's performed in the past. Engage critical thinking, come to a conclusion. Base your vote on that. Sorry. You're wrong. I don't claim to know much abut much, but I do know about the justice system because I've spent my entire working life in it. One of the greatest con tricks the mass media has played on the general public is the idea that our system of justice is dictated by the EU. We have one of if not the most professional, impartial, efficient and, crucially, independent systems of law and justice in the World. Any suggestion that it will somehow improve by leaving the EU is rubbish based on ignorance of how our laws, courts and judges work. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/14/uk-obliged-judgments-of-european-courts-official-document-from-m/ Yeah. It's easy to use Google to find an article that suits your views. It's harder to properly understand a complex issue such as how our system of justice operates in reality. The relationship between UK law and European law is no secret. What people who just accept what the media tells them don't get to hear is how that relationship came about and how it works in practice, and the benefits it has in terms of protecting the rights of vulnerable people. The information is out there, but you have to look beyond the headlines or, as I am lucky enough to be able to do, see it work in action. Edited April 27, 2016 by sipar69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36144694 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT350 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 I'm not really politically minded. I used to think it was the stuff of grumbling middle class old men. But as I get older I take more interest. So bare with me, my views may be a bit simplistic. I don't think that fat, wobbly faced imp David Cameron has the decency to allow a genuine referendum. I think him and the old boys club will fix it. I think he (and they) would do anything to stay in power. Is England the only country where politicians exclusively all come from the same two universities and the same walk of life, making them completely disconnected from the majority of those they represent? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/plans-drawn-up-for-european-superstate-djj5pvq32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock_Steady Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 I have no idea why some corners have wet their collective knickers over Obama daring to speak on US Trade deals. WHAT RIGHT HAS HE GOT TO SPEAK OF THE US? - confused of Royal Tunbridge Wells Presumably the other lot would have been outraged if he'd said sorting it out would be a 5 minute job! Interetsing as on the morning news some Us correspondent made the point that not all of Obama's team are comfortable with him getting involved. She also made a good point that neither leaving or staying was guaranteed success or failure. But she's American so what the bloody blue blazers does she know!!! (thumps down fist on desk so that quiff falls on face and tea splashes out of cup) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted April 27, 2016 Author Share Posted April 27, 2016 I always give Col likes, he talketh much sense! #teamlikeback more like #teamreacharound Stay on topic I *think* I am going to vote stay - still the Leave campaign are saying 'take control' but refuse to say of what... Isn't it obvious? Laws, Courts, Human rights, Trade, Environment, Borders, Democracy. Take your pick, or come up with your own. Do some research. It's pretty embarrassing to vote for the status quo and allow Brussels to think for you because you can't think for yourself. Think 10, 20 or 30 years ahead, what the In & Out campaigners say is 100% guff and irrelevance. Look at the EU performance now, where it's going, and how it's performed in the past. Engage critical thinking, come to a conclusion. Base your vote on that. Has anyone voting out read the official webpage? None of it actually says how and what they want control of. Borders, Environment etc none of this is mentioned, you have just listed out a list of things you 'want' to think you have control of without actually knowing what the Leave campaign have said they will take control of. How can you have a Free Trade Agreement whilst closing borders, that contradicts everything that Free Trade stands for and Free Trade (of which there are many types of different ways of doing this) is about the only thing they do mention that they want to instigate. Engage critical thinking is right, assuming that you can 'take control' of your list by exiting the EU is fundamentally incorrect, plenty of research to be done there my friend. Free trade does not equal open borders. You do not need one, to have the other. Where did you get such an notion? All Free trade is, is trade with no barriers. Tariffs or restrictions, etc. That doesn't mean you can go and live in the country your country happens to have a FTA with. And "Taking Control" if we left is exactly what the UK would get, there's no assumption involved. The UK leaves, the EU would no longer dictate any area of British Laws, Courts, Trade, etc. Who else would do it? I'm confused why you would be in any doubt. Who else would take control if we left the EU? And no, I haven't read the Out campaigns website or literature, nor the In campaign. I've lived in the EU, I've lived in an independant UK. I don't need In's & Out's "informing" me. All the information you need is out there. OK only going to respond once to this and leave it at that as I can see you have your mind set and thats fair enough - you have mentioned Free Trade, so I guess you are referring to the Norway/Swiss model of EU trade. If so, they are part of the European Economic Area, which means they have access to the single market which brings all the benefits of being in the EU without actually being part of it, that puts them outside of the Schengen area also - but - the Free Trade deal they negotiated means that EU citizens are allowed to come and live or work in those respective countries. Its not as completely fluid as being in the Schengen area of course but Norway cannot just 'take control' of their borders at any given time. This is the point I was trying to stress. The other model I presume the Out campaigners will look to is the Canadian model, which is actually probably more in line with how Out supporters see the UK as very distant from the EU with full border control etc. However the Canadian model is subject to tariffs and is not a fully functioning Free Trade model - this is the unknown, that if we go down this route the success of the trade deals will determine what financial impact the UK has to absorb and manage to ensure our continued growth. I don't by any means think the EU is a perfect solution, but, at the moment its better than what we have on the table from the Out campaign. As I said above, I am not going to vote just Out because of some sort of Braveheart style 'take back control' which quite frankly isn't going to happen in the way many people think it will happen, I need some convincing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Muxlow Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 It would be better if we had some real fact to chew over and not so much scare mongering to be honest as I am still not really sure about this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted April 27, 2016 Author Share Posted April 27, 2016 I know, its hard to really delve into fact as its hidden behind so much political rhetoric. Having read both sites, both are going for the scare tactics approach as that clearly worked to a better degree in the Scottish referendum so its going to be even worse this time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 I know, its hard to really delve into fact as its hidden behind so much political rhetoric. Having read both sites, both are going for the scare tactics approach as that clearly worked to a better degree in the Scottish referendum so its going to be even worse this time. How would anyone realistically know the outcome and alleviate your concerns without entering into negotiations about how we go forward, trade, etc etc and we are not going to enter negotiations due to the costs and time that may just not be worth it if the vote is to stay. Its a lot like a divorce really, if someone said, i want to know if i will be better off divorcing my wife and how much will it cost me, no one would be able to give you the answer, you will only know once you have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Muxlow Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Fair comment jetpilot although my divorce wasn't that expensive haha. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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