Brexit 23rd June..?

[Jetpilot]

I just don't encourage misleading affirmations

 

Would you agree there are lazy Romanians in the UK, as well as hard working ones?

 

Jetpilot you know, myself and probably most acknowledge this ,as it applies to all other nationals and immigrants,good/bad,hardworking/lazy etc...you get them everywhere....BUT show me where this reference to hard working romanians was made in his first comment....we just going round now really

 

Give us a break Valy, Iron Bru knows there are hard working immigrants here from all over the EU too, that isnt the issue, just because he didnt feel the need to mention it doesnt mean you need to jump on your high horse and start calling him racist.

 

And you say he was stereotyping............

Edited March 23, 2016 by Jetpilot

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Let's calm down gents, it's a very interesting debate, let's not take things personally!

[docwra]

Changing the direction of this thread a bit, but the other day I was asked in our out of Europe and Trump or Clinton. There was no sitting on the fence allowed or obstaining. Which way would everyone go? Difficult one........................

 

IMO if you think the second question is difficult you shouldnt be allowed to answer the first.

[Ekona]

The fact that infrastructure in this country has been criminally underinvested in should be no surprise to anybody, either side of the debate. New Labour had the funds and the structure to invest massively when they were in power, and they failed. The last two governments haven't got a pot to p*ss in, so no chance of that changing. This includes transport, education, and healthcare.

 

Why do I mention this? It's because that's where people are noticing the direct results of increased local population (note, not immigration) and it's why people are blaming Johnny Handout Foreigner for everything. Well, you're wrong. Population has constantly been increasing worldwide for decades now, this isn't a recent thing at all. Do you think that immigrants are coming here willingly to be told they can't get a doctor appointment for one month*, or that their benefits are being cut? Of course not. There's more natural borns here claiming benefits than immigrants as a whole by a country mile. They've never paid in, they have no intention of paying in, they're just happy to breed and suck the system dry.

 

IMMIGRATION ON THE LOWEST WAGE GRADES WILL NOT DROP AT ALL IF WE LEFT THE EU. You're blind if you think they will! The reason that you see a lot of 'foreigners' (not forgetting that British people can have accents and not have English as their first language too) taking low paid jobs is that they'll work harder and do whatever you ask of them. It's easier for employers to employ British naturals than foreigners by far, so do you not think they would if they had a choice? We as a nation desperately need unskilled labour as much as we need skilled professionals like doctors and male teachers. Ultimately, you might find we actually need to encourage MORE immigration if we leave, by offering more handouts...

 

What we need to do is control where the immigration goes to. No point them going to places where the infrastructure cannot cope, so settle them in places that can. Reduce taxes and rates for businesses in the North, Wales and Scotland to encourage business to invest, thus creating a sustainable economy. Stop this nonsense about taxing business more, it helps no-one. We need more willing workers here, and tbh I'd rather take money away from a lazy Brit and give it to a hardworking Romanian.

 

 

 

So yeah, big rant about the basics. Soz boz.

[Mattbowles]

I've tried to spend some time educating myself on as much of this as possible, but the problem with the Internet is as soon as you are reading something written by someone else it's no longer impartial.

 

News papers tend to lean the way they are told.

 

The problem with the vote is that it allows too many people that don't take the time to educate themselves beyond what that rag 'The Sun' prints,to have a say.

 

Immigration is a small part of the picture but the easiest to create an opinion about, I work with some really hard working Polish chaps and some really lazy English ones. But that's not enough to decide whether an entire country should leave the Eu.

 

In my opinion we should stay, we are too far in to this now to just back out and hope for the best. So unless someone can show me the strategy to leave and how it benefits me and the people around me then I'll be voting to stay.

[Sargara]

Why do I mention this? It's because that's where people are noticing the direct results of increased local population (note, not immigration) and it's why people are blaming Johnny Handout Foreigner for everything. Well, you're wrong. Population has constantly been increasing worldwide for decades now, this isn't a recent thing at all. Do you think that immigrants are coming here willingly to be told they can't get a doctor appointment for one month*, or that their benefits are being cut? Of course not. There's more natural borns here claiming benefits than immigrants as a whole by a country mile. They've never paid in, they have no intention of paying in, they're just happy to breed and suck the system dry.

 

But at the same time, you cant exclusively split the two apart when there are articles such as:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10532695/Nine-in-10-babies-born-in-parts-of-Britain-have-a-foreign-parent.html

(old article but i cant find anything more recent atm)

 

So it seems fair to say population growth as a result of immigration is artificially inflating growth rates above their "normal" rates and therefore increasing demand.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Why do I mention this? It's because that's where people are noticing the direct results of increased local population (note, not immigration) and it's why people are blaming Johnny Handout Foreigner for everything. Well, you're wrong. Population has constantly been increasing worldwide for decades now, this isn't a recent thing at all. Do you think that immigrants are coming here willingly to be told they can't get a doctor appointment for one month*, or that their benefits are being cut? Of course not. There's more natural borns here claiming benefits than immigrants as a whole by a country mile. They've never paid in, they have no intention of paying in, they're just happy to breed and suck the system dry.

 

 

But at the same time, you cant exclusively split the two apart when there are articles such as:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10532695/Nine-in-10-babies-born-in-parts-of-Britain-have-a-foreign-parent.html

(old article but i cant find anything more recent atm)

 

So it seems fair to say population growth as a result of immigration is artificially inflating growth rates above their "normal" rates and therefore increasing demand.

 

The key is in the title: Nine in 10 babies born in PARTS of Britain have a foreign parent. Is like saying: Nine in 10 350z DE in Watford had their engines failing. How is that relevant to the 350z / Nissan brand in UK?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Adrian@TORQEN

[coldel]

...so a baby born here to foreign parents is suddenly British and entitled to anything they want because they are not an immigrant. I would wager a full british pound that many of us if you go back 10 generations probably are immigrants at heart - its not like we all genuinely started here. My grandparents on my mothers side are Irish.

[Stutopia]

10 years ago it was the Poles, coming over here, doing plumbing, fixing up buildings, all in a second language.

40 years ago it was the Indians & Pakistanis, coming over here, inventing a national cuisine, all in a second language.

400 years ago it was the Huguenots, coming over here, criticising Catholicism, all in a second language.

1000 years ago it was the Anglo Saxons, coming over here, inventing the language and laying down the basis for our culture.

 

At least post Brexit, this sort of thing will stop and there'll be no more terror due to the Border Controls and that. Yeah?

[Sargara]

10 years ago it was the Poles, coming over here, doing plumbing, fixing up buildings, all in a second language.

40 years ago it was the Indians & Pakistanis, coming over here, inventing a national cuisine, all in a second language.

400 years ago it was the Huguenots, coming over here, criticising Catholicism, all in a second language.

1000 years ago it was the Anglo Saxons, coming over here, inventing the language and laying down the basis for our culture.

 

 

Anglo Saxons invaded and killed a lot of the local populations

Huguenots were what, 50,000 estimated total across the British Isles?

Indians & Pakistanis were already British citizens from the commonwealth

I appreciate the point you are trying to make but I don't agree with the examples.

 

The Polish reference is current, not something in the past you make it out to be. Have a look at some of the Lincolnshire communities that were based around agriculture after receiving 300% increase in immigration since the EU expanded. But hey, apparently its fine so long as you dont live there?

http://www.bostontar...tail/story.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boston-how-a-lincolnshire-town-became-the-most-divided-place-in-england-a6838041.html

Edited March 23, 2016 by Sargara

[Adrian@TORQEN]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-exit-could-see-energy-costs-rise-500m-022606961.html

[Kev T]

The Economic case against Brexit is collapsing.

 

Monday 21 March will go down as a seminal moment in the campaign for the UK to leave the European Union. It was the day the CBI conceded defeat in the economic argument.

From this point forward, following the publication of a study it commissioned from PwC, the business group will have to explain why economic growth will be higher in the long term if we leave the EU. It’s an admission that higher costs through taxes and regulatory compliance make us less competitive than we should be.

PwC offered two alternative scenarios compared to remaining in the EU: the first with a free trade agreement between the UK and the EU, and the second with World Trade Organisation rules governing our trade. Under both these scenarios, UK growth was projected to be higher after 2020 than if Britain remained in the EU. The area of dispute is what would happen between now and 2020, with PwC arguing that there would be pain.

But this is unnecessarily pessimistic. Leaving the EU requires that we follow Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, meaning we would continue to have full access to the Single Market in the two years stipulated for negotiating our disentanglement. We already have all the necessary regulations so should not expect trade to be disrupted.

We also need to remember that, following Brexit, the UK saves £12bn net per annum in EU membership fees and can tailor regulation to meet its needs. This would be a spur to significant growth. Open Europe has calculated that the most wasteful 100 EU regulations cost over £33bn each year and there are thousands of others on top of that. These could be greatly reduced or simplified, helping small businesses, job creation and the consumer.

Separate studies by academics such as professors Patrick Minford and Tim Congdon, as well as a UK Treasury cost-benefit analysis commissioned by Gordon Brown, have all shown the EU is a drag on UK economic growth in a range from 4 to 12 per cent.

Add to this the admission by chairman of the remain side, Lord Rose, that wages would rise once outside the EU and we see the economic case for staying in is collapsing.

People have every right to be concerned about their jobs and future prospects, but the reason Project Fear is not working is because the scaremongers got it wrong before. It was the CBI, the big corporates and the establishment politicians that told us we could not survive if we did not join the euro.

Now, with cheerful repetition, every week international bodies are declaring that they’re putting their faith in the UK. Last week we had the cosmetics company Avon announcing that, after 130 years, it would be moving its HQ from New York to Britain rather than Paris, while at the weekend Boeing broke the news that its European HQ would be in the UK not Germany.

We also had the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund say it would be investing at least as much in the UK following Brexit, while some 70 per cent of chief financial officers surveyed world-wide said they believed Brexit would make no difference to their business plans.

We even find that the Pentagon is to locate its new European Intelligence Centre in Northamptonshire rather than the Azores, belying the nonsense that our security will be at risk if we leave the EU.

The scare stories about doing business, international investment, access to markets, recruitment of talent and security are all being shown by real decision-makers to be based on false assumptions. The CBI knows this and from now on will be in retreat.

 

 

 

 

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[Adrian@TORQEN]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12205094/David-Petraeus-Brexit-would-weaken-the-Wests-war-on-terror.html

[Adrian@TORQEN]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968

[RobPhoboS]

http://www.telegraph...-on-terror.html

 

That guy is an utter tool.

I have friends that have had to endure working along side him.

[Rock_Steady]

Some more interesting articles and statistics:

 

"Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.

There are not only far more Britons drawing benefits in these countries than vice versa, but frequently the benefits elsewhere in Europe are much more generous than in the UK. A Briton in France receives more than three times as much as a jobless French person in the UK."

 

http://www.theguardi...aim-benefits-eu

 

"A report of the European Commission, quoted by Financial Times on 6 December 2013, found no evidence that EU migrants access UK welfare benefits proportionately more than other residents of the UK. The same holds true for other European countries, the report said.

An IpsoMori and King’s College London survey shows that a third of Britons think the government spends more on Job Seeker’s Allowance than on pensions. In fact, pensions take up 15 times the budget of JSA. Benefit fraud is another area where myths are more powerful than facts. The public think that £24 out of every £100 spent on benefits is claimed fraudulently. In fact, the official figure is seventy pence out of every £100.

In February 2013, the total number of working age benefit claimants in Britain was 5.7 million people, with 7 per cent of them being non-UK nationals. Across all DWP working age benefits, 32 per cent of those claimants who were non-UK nationals were from Asia and Middle East, 31 per cent from within the EU and 24 per cent from Africa.

Only 1,740 Romanians were on that list (0.03 per cent of total claimants). It’s negligible. Also, from the total number of 40,171 child benefit claims last year in respect of children living in another EU country, only 324 went to Romanian children (0.8 per cent). It’s, once again, negligible. Using these figures, it is worth noticing that 9.5 per cent out of 60 million people living in Britain receive benefits, whereas is only 1.4 per cent out of 120,000 Romanians living in the UK. In short, Romanians are net contributors to the public purse, not a drain.

As for the number of EU citizens coming to Britain, National Insurance Number (NINO) registrations to adult overseas entering the UK for the period 2012-2013 show an increase of 50 per cent Spaniards, 44 per cent Greeks, 43 per cent Portuguese, 36 per cent Hungarians, 35 per cent Italians. The number of NINO registrations to Romanians has decreased by 22 per cent.

During a debate in the House of Lords, on 7 January 2014, Lord Davies of Stamford said that unlike the “native populationâ€, EU migrants have contributed “far more†in taxes than they consumed in public services and benefits. He said: “In other words, they have supplied us with a substantial financial surplus to the benefit of every surplus in this country. Is there not every probability that hard working Romanians and Bulgarians will follow the same footstepsâ€. Earl Attlee, Home Office spokesman in the House of Lords, said he “broadly agreed with the thrust of the commentsâ€. The remarks come from outstanding British politicians, with highly recognised professional expertise.

In fact, Romanians’ presence here is mainly the result of the British market demand. They do not take Britons’ jobs. British companies are currently advertising 5,000 posts for Romanians to plug gaps in the highly skilled jobs market. Since 1st January 2014, our Embassy received messages from more than ten British companies which want to employ Romanians. We advised them to advertise their job offers to Job Centre Plus."

 

http://www.telegraph...ontribute..html

 

isn't it a little pointless using bias media or "facts" as a basis? Surely everyone knows the Guardian is left wing and has it's own agenda? As does the Mail on the opposite side of the fence. The whole reason why there is this debate is because the information we are fed comes from the media. Who can really trust them? i think it's turned into a moot subject.

[Stutopia]

You could always use more than one source, mindful of their known position, and then weigh things up. Either way, we'll be brexiting unless the shameless story premier league footballers will have to leave is swallowed hook, line, sinker and copy of angling times by the voter.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

I received these very "impartial" facts about the BREXIT via post today

 

 

[Bockaaarck]

Whatever we / you may think, do not get pulled in to making a vote, just to be contrary. Dont vote out just because "...well Cameron says we should stay in, he cant be trusted, so im voting out..".

 

I guarantee you one thing, in my opinion, Cameron wants us to leave the EU. Don't be fooled by voting against something because of what someone says they want / or need.

 

Remember, this is the same someone who has stated they have no tax free, off-shore interests that they have benefitted from. Not even those interests that may have been set up and managed by his late father.

 

No never got anything from that, nothing, i just have a bit of savings, a house that we now rent ot because we live in mumber 10.....

 

.....well i may have made a little money here, but its only £30k...

 

[Sargara]

I received these very "impartial" facts about the BREXIT via post today

 

Could be worse, you could have paid for it with your taxes like the governments leaflet we all will be getting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rendum-35980571

EU referendum: Government to spend £9m on leaflets to every home

Edited April 8, 2016 by Sargara

[Stutopia]

£9m is pocket change to the economy, it gets spent on a whim all the time. Perhaps the Queen's barge needs a lick of paint or Houses of Parliament needs its £.5 billion makeover.

 

When they say it's only £120bn to renew Trident and that's "good value" to safeguard 6000 jobs. Unlike the £1bn to safeguard 15,000 steel jobs in Wales, which is not "good value", just like the 9m for leaflets .

 

The irony of the Welsh jobs of course being that the EU tried to levy cheap Chinese steel and it was the UK government that blocked them to protect Chinese investments here in the UK. Damn EU trying to protect European steel manufacturing...

[Ekona]

In the bigger picture though, if the Chinese bring in £100Bn of investment because we let our steel go under, then it's good value. Trident is a different story altogether, I couldn't care how many jobs it saves, I want it for the deterrent more than anything. I didn't know about the UK blocking the Chinese steel levy though, but that's a good example of how we're happy to use the EU rules to help ourselves and it's not always them dictating to us what we do...

 

I don't get the fuss about the leaflet thing, £9M is peanuts and given that there's a glut of anti-EU propaganda around, I'm glad that there's something there to balance it up. I don't think the leaflet itself is much good mind, but the theory behind it is sound. I'd actually like it if the Out had £9M of money to send leaflets round as well, in the same format, to at least give people half a chance at making an informed non-DM influenced decision.

[coldel]

You can be as sure as hell if they guys pushing the Leave motion could have, they would happily have spent £9m of public money on a country wide leaflet campaign with positive facts about leaving - their whole high morals stand is just posturing to the public to try and gain a political upper hand and unfortunately the public will fall for it.

[BobbyZ]

You can be as sure as hell if they guys pushing the Leave motion could have, they would happily have spent £9m of public money on a country wide leaflet campaign with positive facts about leaving - their whole high morals stand is just posturing to the public to try and gain a political upper hand and unfortunately the public will fall for it.

 

Of course, but that's how politics in general goes.

[coldel]

Absolutely, which is why people should not be going on about it as a bad thing and that the Leave campaign are whiter than white, or that the current government is so morally wrong compared to others (because Labour would have done the same thing in the blink of an eye) - but as I say, I bet plenty of people are now reading the red tops and being brainwashed into something it isn't.

 

My neighbour had his in laws stay over and he ended up having a row with them on Europe - the in laws are old school working class scottish who were picking news stories out of the Sun and using that as a reason for leaving i.e. Romanian man claims benefits whilst in a big house etc...I wonder how many people believed the Sun when they said 1 in 5 muslims in the UK support IS, and how many of those same people took the time to read the article that had the Sun apologising for misleading the country with the headline?