Brexit 23rd June..?

[Adrian@TORQEN]

https://fullfact.org/europe/governments-eu-leaflet-special-status/

 

 

 

[Jetpilot]

Leaving the EU will not stop immigration, you wont be able to 'shut up shop', the global economy doesn't really work that way. We will have to include freedom of movement

 

Even though it was said tongue in cheek, if leaving the Eu will make no difference to immigration, laws and host of other stuff apparently leaving wont make any difference to, why not leave and stop chucking them 10 billion net each year?

 

You are absolutely right, which is why up front I said I believe this is not a vote on immigration as a central argument, but many people think it is.

 

Lets be honest, Ukip didnt end up with just over 12% of the vote for their economic policies.

[HaydnH]

Lets be honest, Ukip didnt end up with just over 12% of the vote for their economic policies.

 

Are you saying they speak the same language as 12% of the voters? When it comes to immigration I've only ever heard use two words which begin with F & O so you're probably right.

[Shenley]

Well, I've just voted for real. (Postal vote completed)

 

😳

[TT350]

I won't be voting. Too much corruption and vote rigging. The outcome will be whatever it needs to be.

[glrnet]

That indicates some serious vote rigging. Interested to know your sources.

 

 

Sent from my Zed using Nangkang tyres front, RE040's rear

[TT350]

That indicates some serious vote rigging. Interested to know your sources.

 

 

Sent from my Zed using Nangkang tyres front, RE040's rear

 

My sources?

 

Living life under Politicians past and present.

[Ekona]

Ah, so all in your head then, gotcha.

 

The only way to prevent vote rigging is to actually vote yourself.

[BobbyZ]

Ah, so all in your head then, gotcha.

 

The only way to prevent vote rigging is to actually vote yourself.

 

While I belive that corruption happens in every walk of life, I don't believe rigging of elections in countries such as ours happens (although I wouldn't be overly shocked if it turned out to be a fact).

However, your statement doesn't seem to be valid in any way- I don't see how a rigged election could be resolved by people voting, because by its nature a rigged vote isn't affected by the votes of the public.

Edited May 29, 2016 by BobbyZ

[Ekona]

Because you need to rig in greater quantities to defeat a genuine vote, which is harder to achieve.

 

But yes, I agree that we as a nation are by far one of the 'cleanest' countries in the world for this stuff.

[BobbyZ]

Fair enough - I don't know the ins and outs of rigging an election. Still though, I'm not sure that's the 'only way', or even the correct way, to prevent vote rigging.

[Kieran O'Quick]

Spoke to an old chap last week who said we're definitely going to stay in ... regardless.

 

He said he'd been asking everyone he ever met for the last 40 years if they had voted to join. He reckons he still hadn't found anyone who had.

[coldel]

Its going to be a very regional vote, I can guarantee most of my working class family over in Essex will vote leave, most of my friends at work in central London will vote stay. I havent spoken to anyone outside a few family members in Essex who have vote leave which counters your 'old chap' possibly?

[Kieran O'Quick]

Interesting - I haven't spoke to anyone who wants to stay? I'm up North and interact with small business owners and minimum wage Brits. Naff-all to lose for them I suppose. They're worried about how many foreign people are hanging around the streets doing nothing on work days..

[Jetpilot]

Spoke to a few note sures, otherwise all no bar one friend in Bristol with a multi national company looking at 1.5 million in extra costs.

[coldel]

They should be more worried about the home grown ones hanging around on streets doing 'nowt' there are many more British ones for every foreign one. The cost to the economy of immigrant benefit claimants is less than 10% of overall benefit payments, the rest go to British born. Unfortunately it's easy to blame the minorities with baseless facts when there isn't enough representation of them to speak back.

[Kieran O'Quick]

10% is a lot though isn't it?

 

It has turned incredibly foreign here where I am. They shout and scream on the street... what's that about? Our local green lesbian community have upped sticks and legged it. Property prices have collapsed...

[coldel]

Property prices have gone up and down all across the country, but not because of immigration. My parents live in an area of Essex which which certainly contains more ethnicities than it used to, and their house price has gone up considerably. Can we then justify that rise based on immigration into the area?

 

Shouting in the street, come on, I walk past dozens of lunatics of white ethnic origin every day in central London on the way to work.

 

I believe you see what you want to see. Some people will want to see immigrants causing all of life's woes whilst ignoring the white life long benefit cheat who will never contribute anything to this country apart from being born here and breathing the air here.

[Kieran O'Quick]

But it has always been like this?

 

My old Irish relatives were dragged into America to screw over the locals by undercutting their rates of pay.

 

What do all the white benefit cheats add up to? Not much. But I saw 4 Romanian guys today, all sat down drinking coffee and Pelligrinos, clutching a cane. The real cheats are at the top but why would someone at the bottom not opt to do what those guys were doing?

[coldel]

Seriously, look at the facts, not stories and individual daily mail style perspective. I can walk through covent garden at lunchtime past some of the dodgier pubs and see the same groups of white British born people getting hammered at midday every single day. Do I lay the blame of economic issues, employment issues, salary issues at their door? I can give you a story of British born people treating this country like crap for every one you can name about foreigners. I guarantee your stories will run out before mine do...

 

UK born people make up the majority of welfare payouts - over 90%. Who knows how much of that is 'cheated', its hard to say, until they are caught. Some are foreign, some are British born. The fact that 90% of benefit is paid to British born people would indicate that the likelihood, and its a very strong one, is that the majority of cheats are British born.

 

But I get it, if you are slap bang in the middle of an area that has had a large foreign influx you can have that view, but, its not the bigger picture.

 

The idea that immigrants cause all these problems and that by voting leave will sort it all out is just fantasy stuff, but, more importantly and more scary, its a fantasy that a lot of people will buy into out of a need to aspire to something more.

[Kieran O'Quick]

You are 100% right. That's my point

 

We have the luxury of an attractive welfare state because we don't like tripping over dying babies on our way to the opera...

 

But we can't open it up ad infinitum...

[coldel]

And we don't, there are rules in place, like every country in Europe - France and Germany both take many more than we do and pay out via welfare. We had higher immigration at many points in the last 50 years than we do now, unfortunately social media makes it into something a lot more than it ever was.

 

We need to get over the whole immigration thing as being this huge issue. If you had various problems with your car - it was spraying oil everywhere, petrol leaking out the tank and the headlight washers had run out of fluid - would the headlight washers be your main focus of resolution when its probably 10% of your issues? Or would the oil and fuel be the main cause for concern, that other 90%

[Kieran O'Quick]

But it comes a point where immigration does become the issue. America took in every creed and colour when they ruled the world. It changed when they filled up. I was in America in the 90s and they were so strict about throwing me out when the time came. And they didn't even have much of a welfare state.

 

And a country that doesn't jail people who rip-off millions (just bans them from being company directors for a bit) can't complain about some bloke who claims for a bad back, three non-existent kids and a gastric band....

 

(BH Monday tomorrow , this could run and run. . )

[andlid]

You guys actually think its a clever move to leave?

[coldel]

At the moment I am voting stay, because the argument to leave is just not good enough. I would be happy to vote leave if I could have some idea about what we are actually going to do, all I see are made up numbers and that they would spend it on this and that (and in the grand scheme of things that's irrelevant) but I still haven't seen how we actually manage the economy from an independent country point of view. Its pretty much going to be 'make it up as we go along' which I am sorry I just cannot buy into.