docwra Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Mate, read the link. Rather than just buy off the shelf parts and bolt them onto the car, he originally flow tested the head and carried out some porting/matching, and this part focuses more on cams, valves and finds out that the bottleneck is actually the plenum intakes. Ever heard anyone in the UK say that? Funny old thing .......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 The point is that it can be done, and now he has done the research we dont have to bother experimenting with stuff that isnt going to work. When the other option is £4K and upwards this could be a very real alternative to getting more power, one that no-one in the UK has even looked into whcih is pretty poor in 13 odd years of VQ engine tuning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floydbax Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) http://www.superstre...e-engine-build/ Loved that article. Wondered why they don't use a stroker kit? http://www.briancrower.com/makes/nissan/vq35de_stroker.shtml (added link for clarity) Edited December 2, 2015 by Floydbax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodyboarder81 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I say go for it Ben ! If you truly believe it's possible then go for it . Everybody will have thier own thoughts on the subject but it would be really good to see what can be done . The only thing I would say is get a dyno done in completely standard form so as to see the actual gain you will have achieved after . These threads pop up every now and then , and I'm completely guilty of saying it costs a lot for not a lot ! Would be nice to have some proper UK first hand info on it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) No proof or experience. Which neither have you certainly not experience, perhaps our tuners have a better experience than all of us combined on this thread, obviously not, they dont know how to tune na power apparently. OK, enough of this bitching. We dont know how to tune N/A here, the stock answer is always "its not worth it" and that was what I used to say to people ......... until I took a bit of time to talk to Ben about it and look into the research he has done. I CBA to check but I imagine he has linked up the the guys in the States that are seeing 340+ whp from NA engines, so if a couple of lads in their big American garajjjes can do it then you do have to ask the question why Abbey, Horsham etc cant. Id also say its a pretty fair assumption that someone who is asking about headers and true N/A tuning will have spent the £500 and couple of hours doing the 350Z BPU's that are quoted on here pretty much every day. Experience? In the past he has fitted a V8 to an S13, did his own adjustments to get the roll centres and other geo correct and then went and won the Time Attack handling challenge (with a ringer driver TBF) and then went onto spaceframe the front end of it. I know there are guys here that have done some modifications, but not like that. Flame away, but the vast majority of owners on here have extremely limited tuning experience and generally just walk into a tuners and ask "how much?", to start picking at a guy who has made his own modificed cars and has taken the time to research and speak to guys over the pond that are at the cutting edge of VQ35 tuning is probably exactly why we are so far behind over here. EDIT: to give you a nice example, about 10 years ago people were saying that an SR20 couldnt handle more than 330hp without forging, manifolds and a shitload of cash thrown at it. I can now pick one up and make it 450hp for less than £1500. Technology moves forward, sure, but knowledge moves a lot more quickly if youre prepared to listen. Dont take this the wrong way Doc but, impressive as the mentioned v8 swap etc is, it still isnt experience of tuning vq engines which was my point and if Abbey/Horsham etc cant tune n/a as you say, Ben is f**ked anyway as who is going to map it? The general "bitchin" is to the figures (£ to hp) proposed and i stand by it, there is no way you are getting 340 rwhp out a zed for the cost of some headers, cams and some gtr fuelling. Edited December 2, 2015 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZMANALEX Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Firstly I am not going to get drawn into this debate. Secondly it is wrong to say that UK tuners do not know how to tune a NA VQ35DE. I can think of 4 tuners off the top of my head and in particular RJN Motorsports. Give Bob Neville (dealer principle) a shout as I am sure that he would be more than happy to enlighten the misinformed of the real power obtainable and ridiculous costs involved to make 340 bhp at the hubs. https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=rjn+motorsport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Fair comment .......... but mapping is specific to the ECU or software you are using, not the car. I dont know the limits of UpRev but its quite possible you could do it with that if the parameters allow, aforementioned tuners will know I will add that Im not knocking any of our established tuners, just saying that there is a different path that can be followed that would appear to deliver good results. You may well be right on the costs, I wouldnt like to say, but its going to work out cheaper than going SC so is worthy of consideration IMO. ETA: I think youll find Ive mentioned RJN on here a number of times ........... but they are a race team, not a tuner. And I know you dont want to be drawn into the debate Alex (telling people they are "misinformed" probably isnt the best way to go about it TBH), but are you saying that the link I posted on the last page is fabrication? Seems to be quite a lot of supporting evidence to me, Ive read similar elsewhere as well. Edited December 2, 2015 by docwra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark@Abbey m/s Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Good debate; If your going to fit headers PPE long tubes are the way forward with the parallel merge collectors , these make good bhp but are also super loud and I am afraid a motor out to fit and you cant add Cats for MOT time We have a set to go onto our 350Z Rev Up race car but we haven't had a chance yet to get them fitted. I have tuned a couple of HR with the PPE Long Tubes fitted and we are seeing around 300 hub bhp with only bolt on parts and the Stock ECU tuned with UPrev so around 340 flywheel BHP which is pretty good for a NA car nearly 100bhp per litre on pump fuel One thing thou guys , lets compare BHP corrections , if we all run in SAE us Brits that cant tune will gain around 10 to 15bhp @ the hubs so with a DE with bolt on parts which we are now regular seeing around 260 hub bhp which we estimate at 300 flywheel bhp will raise to 275 hub bhp. easy way to make number's. We have built a 350DE that made around 320 hub bhp still running the stock tuned ECU , made max power at around 7200rpm from memory, cant remember the reg number thou. With the DE you can see the way the power rolls over around 6500rpm it is limited with flow , to make more power it will need to see more revs to run more revs it will need a wilder cams and supporting mods and if your running wilder cams it will need more compression. Also the flow on a stock intake port DE cylinder head is better than the flow on a VR38 Cylinder intake port , the drag car we used to run ran totally stock DE heads with better quality valves it flowed that well remember these motors are around 85bhp per litre which a few years ago was FI numbers. To make 340 whp it you need to get inside the motor it is doable easily but will cost you. I know Bob from RJN very well , we tune all the 370's for him he runs for Nissan Sony Playstation with ECUTEK , I have also helped them out with there old 350Z HR proper race cars with IES built motors we was seeing around 350 hub bhp with these (these we engined dynoed at 400bhp) so it is doable just will cost money far more than adding FI; We also build some DE's motors for a team that runs Chevrons in the British GT , built DE motor rods/pistons/dry sump/Jenvey Throttle bodies but stock cams running Life ECU, these will see around 320 hub bhp this gain is from running TB's power still rolls over at 7200rpm thou but we see a flat torque curve from 2500rpm to 6000rpm. Edited December 2, 2015 by Mark@Abbey m/s 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake ben taylor Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 The headers are the key but they've got to be long enough for the pulse effect to act as a pump. Same as tuning itb trumpet length And then the primary diameter has to be enough. There's a lot to it that I won't pretend to understand but the z is restricted on it inlet and exhaust and you can't change them singularly. And if no one is running the right exhaust manifolds that unlock the power then all the money in the world thrown at high comp etc won't do anything if the engine can't breathe through its exhaust.... Now I will gladly welcome someone saying 'I ran ppe headers' or 'I had some proper long tubes made' and them finding it didn't work. But if no one has done the right things to get power then why does it make it impossible to get power with the right mods? Has anyone in the UK ran proper long tubes with the aim of getting power? I'm genuinely interested in their findings if they have. Was it on a revup or normal de? If de did they add cams? Na tuning is finicky. Its gotta be done right and sasha has spent the money working out how to do it right so all we need to do is replicate it. And if it isn't done right it doesn't matter how much money other tuners have thrown at the problem it won't yield the results. That doesn't make it impossible. Also this isn't a tuning issue on the ecu, revup can do this (Michael Gardner is running sasha's old engine on revup and got better results). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake ben taylor Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Mark that's great!! so the numbers are doable. Granted you say it costs but that's semantics. It being doable is enough for me at this stage. My only gripe about the ppe with parallel merge is the lack of stepped primaries on the de ones. If the hr ones fit they may be a better option as they have the stepped primary. Have you or rjn done any work with bigger tb's or worked the plenum to increase flow or increased the intake pipe diameter? Even stock the de pulls a huge vacuum in the plenum I believe which isn't good on a na engine. Just seen the extra about the chevron stuff. That much power on stock cams but itbs shows how much gain can be had by opening the intake (itbs obviously being the ultimate but there's work can be done with the plenum and stock tb) Edited December 2, 2015 by fake ben taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark@Abbey m/s Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Has anyone in the UK ran proper long tubes with the aim of getting power? I'm genuinely interested in their findings if they have. Was it on a revup or normal de? If de did they add cams. Only car so far we have run PPE longtubes on is a HR motor , running stock cams and a Cosworth manifold only works on a NA car above 7000rpm and the stock cams wont work up there. Running TB's on stock cams work thou. But the Stock ECU wont run TB's but Link make a Plug and play ECU that will allow to run TB and even keep fly by wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark@Abbey m/s Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Even stock the de pulls a huge vacuum in the plenum I believe which isn't good on a na engine. at wide open throttle? Edited December 2, 2015 by Mark@Abbey m/s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake ben taylor Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Yeah. Can't remember where I read it but easy to test. Its what prompted sasha to try bigger tbs.he went to 90mm and had trouble with the idle which I believe they fixed by drilling a very small hole in the butterfly. There's a tried and tested 75mm kit with Good results which I'm trying to replicate cheaper for UK guys rather than order from the states. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy10v Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 So cost wise on DE assuming the Superstreet/Onpoint numbers are correct and using their mods anybody fancy filling in some blanks or correcting prices? How much gain did Sasha get by using a custom upper plenum rather than just a spacer? 205-210whp Stock £0 272whp Longtube headers £1500 Race exhaust £600 Custom intake plenum £ 90mm throttle body £250 Remap £450 Total 292whp Longtube headers £1500 Race exhaust £600 Custom intake plenum £ 90mm throttle body £250 Remap £450 Stage 1 cams £900 Total £ 326whp Longtube headers £1500 Race exhaust £600 Custom intake plenum £ 90mm throttle body £250 Remap £450 Stage 2 cams £900 Valve springs £ Total £ Note "With 300 degrees of duration, these cams don’t idle all too well and won’t run very smoothly below 2,000 rpm, but they make power." 372whp Longtube headers Race exhaust ITBs JE pistons Eagle rods Stage X cams Valvesprings Ported head Injectors Standalone ECU Mapping Total £ Note "the engine is constantly surging and will not run below 1,500 rpm." 413whp HR engine swap 3.7 stroker JE pistons GTR rod bolts Valve springs Cams ITBs Injectors Fuel pump Custom airbox Dry sump Standalone ECU Mapping Total £ DE supercharger costs 350 WHP Supercharger kit £ Uprev £750 Total £ DE supercharger costs 400whp Supercharger kit £ Uprev £750 Fuel system £ Total £ Personally my current plan is Plenum spacer £170 HR exhaust manifolds £110 Decats £200 Uprev £450 Total £930 Not sure whether to do cams as well, jumps the cost up a fair bit, Nismo exhaust already fitted as it came with the car. The above ignores labour costs, assuming DIY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy10v Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 How bored will you get changing the headers every year so you can get through an mot? Would you not just build an MOT cat pipe you fit to the centre section for MOT? Even if you were running true duals you could easily make a Y-cat-Y to make an easily swapped section, then just run straight pipes in that section the rest of the time, V bands or bolt through flanges and it would be a quick swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Kind of funny that this all started with it being relatively cheap to gain N/A power from the DE...but now the cost is not so much an issue. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 How bored will you get changing the headers every year so you can get through an mot? Would you not just build an MOT cat pipe you fit to the centre section for MOT? Even if you were running true duals you could easily make a Y-cat-Y to make an easily swapped section, then just run straight pipes in that section the rest of the time, V bands or bolt through flanges and it would be a quick swap. My understanding is if a cat was fitted it needs to be there, so you will need two, I am happy to wrong on that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake ben taylor Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I meant I wasn't wanting to argue with a tuner about costs. Its pointless as they've a business to run, not saying anything bad about any tuner there. I was more happy to have the 'its impossible' camp be wrong. Andy on that list, since that blog post was made they've had good results without the custom plenum (up to a point) and without the bigger tb (again to a point) but also had good gains with just a 75mm throttle body upgrade. Also jwt have made some new cam profiles since then and the key one is the C8 which idles fine and has big lift and 280deg duration. For most the gains they give should be fine.as in up to the 340whp area. According to jwt when I spoke to them the cams surge at idle as the stock intake is too restrictive but they idle and run fine at low Revs on itbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake ben taylor Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Do many actually fit cats for MOT or like me do they get friendly mot's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmc Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Perhaps if the cost of going fi wasn't so high then there would be no argument. As much as I'd love to turbo mine i just cant justify spending more than what the cars worth to do it. If im honest im struggling to understand why the costs are so high for either turbo or supercharging compared to other marques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snjur Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 And comes again in the end on few simple words. N/A is the most expensive way to go slow. To get 320 from DE will take money and you will still be eaten by any 2.0 stage 2 turbo hothach. NA would be interested if Zed had 1000kg weigt but being fat as it already is, it's just waste of money. Well in the end if you have money and it makes you happy than go for it. But in today's terms of fast cars Zed with anything less than 450 500 hp is not a fast car. Sent from my SM-G850F using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake ben taylor Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 You know that a lot of the hp figures being quoted here are at the wheels right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundy Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I meant I wasn't wanting to argue with a tuner about costs. Its pointless as they've a business to run, not saying anything bad about any tuner there. I was more happy to have the 'its impossible' camp be wrong. Andy on that list, since that blog post was made they've had good results without the custom plenum (up to a point) and without the bigger tb (again to a point) but also had good gains with just a 75mm throttle body upgrade. Also jwt have made some new cam profiles since then and the key one is the C8 which idles fine and has big lift and 280deg duration. For most the gains they give should be fine.as in up to the 340whp area. According to jwt when I spoke to them the cams surge at idle as the stock intake is too restrictive but they idle and run fine at low Revs on itbs. Can I just point out that no one has said it's impossible? And multiple times I've said I'd love to go the NA route. I'm also sure know one is criticising your knowledge. As most people know on this forum I like to be different, and i'm a full supporter of a NA build. All we were saying was your cost factor was off, hence why so little people have done it in the UK. Most people on this website wont want to pay £1500+ for the PPE headers, to then pay a garage to take there engine out and fit them for X amount. Hence why I chose Stillen headers, they reviewed good gains, not as much as PPE but the difference wasn't ground breaking I.e. wasn't worth £1k for me as I wasn't chasing numbers. If I was spending thousands on my internals then of course I'd pay the price of PPE as I'd want every upgrade I could to get the most BHP. Again - NO ONE IS SAYING IT'S IMPOSSIBLE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy10v Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 What is your planned spec Ben? Long tube headers £1500 JWT C8 cams £ JWT valve springs/shims £ Uprev £450 Plenum spacer? Ben UK 75mm TB? Injectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake ben taylor Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) I'll be going long tubes but have someone who can make them and has quoted 1400 for custom headers and full exhaust. 75mm tb Custom plenum but doing a lot of that myself Plenum spacer (wasso) Gtr injectors Panel filter and 06 airbag mod from on here Mines an out and out track car so thinking on c10/c9 cam combo Uprated valve springs ($200 I think) Edit: I'm basically doing as much as I can that sasha did without the forged internals so wont be able to rev as high but the peak figures don't need you to Edit2: I may go arp rod bolts for safety but last time I did that to a car it threw a rod at its next outing Edited December 2, 2015 by fake ben taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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