Ekona Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Not really, it was designed to be a cheap fun light RWD coupe. It's certainly that, people are just too lazy to use the revs for overtaking so it always feels underpowered. I just want a bit more grunt to assist with gaining speed at 6th on the motorways, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitstew Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Hot hatches & sports cars are completely different markets so I dont see any issues. There will always be those people who want the practicality of a sporty hatchback and there will always be those people who want a sleek 2 seater RWD sports car. Edited September 17, 2015 by rabbitstew 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Not really, it was designed to be a cheap fun light RWD coupe. It's certainly that, people are just too lazy to use the revs for overtaking so it always feels underpowered. I just want a bit more grunt to assist with gaining speed at 6th on the motorways, that's all. I never really considered the 86 to be "cheap".... fun and RWD seems rather spot on, but the release prices were far from cheap IMO. I actually think that they killed the idea by pricing it high. Edited September 17, 2015 by grahamc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 It's cheap in Jap and US 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraziekatz1 Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 The latest super quick hot hatches are incredibly expensive and my zed is 11 years old now...what's the point even trying to compare! I can still pull off cool driving in my shades and whilst being overtaken by Seat Leon Cupra with pink neons, though Really hoping this isn't the end of car enthusiasts Next generation's idea of modding will be which optional extras they pick at purchase and car maintenance will stretch as far as refuelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) I'd say 'affordable' is probably the most accurate term. Regarding the power, it's true that when you're going for it the lack of mid range isn't a problem, but I do think a bit more grunt lower down would make it more fun, more of the time Edit: re the 86 Edited September 17, 2015 by BobbyZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 It's partly why the Zed works so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Really hoping this isn't the end of car enthusiasts Next generation's idea of modding will be which optional extras they pick at purchase and car maintenance will stretch as far as refuelling. All the more important that we go out with a bang (not literally!) then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 It's cheap in Jap and US how cheap? Not looked over there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 £16K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 £16K. New? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Yup. Manual starts from that price, in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Yup. Manual starts from that price, in the US. ok, then agree, thats cheap!! do they add sales tax afterwards? So where is the rest of the 9k price difference going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Welcome to the world of VAT! Yeah, sales tax as well on top, so that depends on state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Welcome to the world of VAT! Yeah, sales tax as well on top, so that depends on state. so thats a few k more, but it sure as hell doesnt equate to £9k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Wasnt there a base model at 12k in Japan also, mind you Gtr was £32k at launch in Japan. You can use the revs as much as you want, but 200bhp and 150ft lb of torque is all you ever going to have and that will get you no where fast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Wasnt there a base model at 12k in Japan also, mind you Gtr was £32k at launch in Japan. You can use the revs as much as you want, but 200bhp and 150ft lb of torque is all you ever going to have and that will get you no where fast I believe it was.... under correction though My MX5 weighs less, but has less power (right now ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) to be honest, hot hatchbacks getting more and more powerful leaves sports car in exactly the same place they were before - also getting more and more powerful. Yes a hot hatch of today may be faster than a sports GT of ten years ago, but compare that to a sportscar of today with some 500 horsepower and once again it is outgunned. The power race is still in full swing and pretty much every manufacturer is guilty of it - a new car has to be faster than the one it replaces, period. its no different in any other category - super saloon power levels are going through the roof, supercars are all getting near 700bhp now. ALso cars continue to get bigger and bigger - until they get so big theres room for a smaller car below it - years ago the 3 series used to be a reasonable size - now its a big as a 5 series was, the 1 series has grown from a simple hatchback to a full range of hatch, coupe and convertible. Edited September 17, 2015 by brillomaster 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Its all down to weight IMO, everything is getting considerably heavier so needs more power to move it around. A 205 GTi weighs 895KG, thats less than a Lotus Exige, and a Golf R is over 1500KG. A true sportscar IMO works to keep the weight as low as possible (I mean that in both ways) and means that every aspect of the dynamics are better, which in turn leads to a more enjoyable drive. Power to weight is all important if youre drag racing, but makes absolutely no difference at all in braking and corners, which is where the fun of driving is - Ive had a few hot hatches on test and while they are immensely fast, you feel very detached from the road and they dont inspire confidence. The example I always use is our mk3 MR2, Ive done a few trackdays where I have had it there alongside my Zed, and more recently my 135i. Obviously it wont lap as quickly as either of them but its my first choice to drive every time (if I can get the missus out of it anyway ) as its such a hoot, you can also properly enjoy it on the road without the fear of a firey 180mph death, or a stint in prison for speeding, two of the main reasons I dont own a GTR I think whats really killing the sportscar is the safety and ICE that everyone seems to demand of a car these days, if Ford can bang out a 300hp engine to stick in a Focus imagine how goo the same engine would be in a 1100KG two seater. If they made one. Ive also read the Zed is so heavy because they didnt buiold it stiff enough to start with, hence the dirty great strut brace and half a ton of bracing underneath - if it has been sub 1200KG (like the S156 Silvia they were makign at the same time) how good would it have been? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 It's also a lot to do with crash regs both EU and US, as they want bigger and more robust collapsible structures built into new cars these days. Tech gets smaller, cars get bigger. Sad times. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Also not forgetting everything gets better to allow for the bigger hp, diffs, gearboxes, suspension and tyres. Would be useless if you couldnt put the power to the road. The drivers of the world are a small % of the marketplace, going back to the 86 as its probably the most likely recent contender to lightweight, rwd, fine chassis etc, would it have sold in the numbers they hoped if it was cheaper? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Either cheaper or with more grunt. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Yep, there was no way I was going to buy anything with less than 300hp, never mind 200hp regardless of what it weighs. As Ive always said, if you have a racetrack on your commute to work then buy an S2K, but if its straight lines and traffic, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Its all down to weight IMO, everything is getting considerably heavier so needs more power to move it around. A 205 GTi weighs 895KG, thats less than a Lotus Exige, and a Golf R is over 1500KG. A true sportscar IMO works to keep the weight as low as possible (I mean that in both ways) and means that every aspect of the dynamics are better, which in turn leads to a more enjoyable drive. Power to weight is all important if youre drag racing, but makes absolutely no difference at all in braking and corners, which is where the fun of driving is - Ive had a few hot hatches on test and while they are immensely fast, you feel very detached from the road and they dont inspire confidence. The example I always use is our mk3 MR2, Ive done a few trackdays where I have had it there alongside my Zed, and more recently my 135i. Obviously it wont lap as quickly as either of them but its my first choice to drive every time (if I can get the missus out of it anyway ) as its such a hoot, you can also properly enjoy it on the road without the fear of a firey 180mph death, or a stint in prison for speeding, two of the main reasons I dont own a GTR I think whats really killing the sportscar is the safety and ICE that everyone seems to demand of a car these days, if Ford can bang out a 300hp engine to stick in a Focus imagine how goo the same engine would be in a 1100KG two seater. If they made one. Ive also read the Zed is so heavy because they didnt buiold it stiff enough to start with, hence the dirty great strut brace and half a ton of bracing underneath - if it has been sub 1200KG (like the S156 Silvia they were makign at the same time) how good would it have been? most definitely and its why I run a MX5 on track as well as the GTR and yes I struggle to the missus out of it as well!!! And all my friends.... everyone takes it out. Also not forgetting everything gets better to allow for the bigger hp, diffs, gearboxes, suspension and tyres. Would be useless if you couldnt put the power to the road. The drivers of the world are a small % of the marketplace, going back to the 86 as its probably the most likely recent contender to lightweight, rwd, fine chassis etc, would it have sold in the numbers they hoped if it was cheaper? Good point about all the supporting bits and pieces.... And yes, drivers are a shrinking percentage, car is more a tool than anything else Either cheaper or with more grunt. Agree, if it was 16-18k new, I would already have bought one. I prefer the cheaper base and I mod how I want it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Also not forgetting everything gets better to allow for the bigger hp, diffs, gearboxes, suspension and tyres. Would be useless if you couldnt put the power to the road. Dont want to contradict but Id say its actually the opposite, as engineering and materials become more advanced stuff will get smaller and lighter, youve only got to look at the ZEOD engine or how much composites are coming into car manufacturing, or the use of polymers to replace metals in wiring to see it. the problem is that the savings are being lost again on adding even more comfort and toys A great stat I heard once was that since 1970, despite advances the weight of IFE equipment on aircraft has increased by 10 times, where the weight of safety equipment hasnt increased at all. What does that tell you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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