James Junior Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I've been a car nut all my life and have been modifying cars since I was able to drive. I have been part of many car communities over the years and it is interesting to observe how certain trends and mindsets become embedded in certain communities. What still surprises me with the 370Z community is the casual attitude people have to widening their track with spacers. What is especially odd is the number of posts I see where people suggest that spacers improve handling by widening the track of the car. The conventional wisdom of all the car forums I have been a part of until now is that adding spacers compromises handling, increases tyre wear and puts more stress on suspension components. The price of vanity if you will. This was definitely the case with a previous Alfa Spider I had a few years back. Mine was a 2.4 diesel, sacrilege I know, but I wanted something for business use that would be cheap to fuel but still looked nice! In addition to a remap, I lowered it 30mm on Eibachs and added some 15mm spacers. Whilst the car did handle much better in the twisties on account of the EIbachs with much less pitching and diving under braking, the spacers made it feel more unsettled than standard. They endowed the car with a greater desire to snuffle out uneven cambers in the road, whilst some of the precision on turn in was definitely lost. I did get used to it over time, but it was a marked change to the handling profile of the car. I hasten to add that this was not the most precise of machines out of the box to begin with. That was considered quite a large widening, yet in 370Z-land people casually widen their track with 20mm - 25mm spacers as if its no big thing. Hardly anyone ever seems to comment on any negative impact to the handling profile of their cars after doing this. In my experience and opinion the 370Z as standard is a pretty precise and nicely set up performance car, so I am surprised that people are so willing to mess with the stock set up like this. Don't get me wrong, I hate how recessed the wheels are in the arches as standard and think spacers and a drop make an immeasurable difference to the cars aesthetics. However, based on past experience I am cagey about ruining my cars handling as although it spends most of its time driving in the city, I do enjoy driving it hard on the open road when the conditions permit. I would be very interested to hear commentary from those who have fitted spacers and / or lowered their car about how it changed the handling characteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I think you have answered your own question, its for show and nothing more (same as lower offset), whilst it may be noticeable with regards to handling, its irrelevant when it comes to road driving speeds imho and by that i mean i am not going to be driving at a pace where the difference in feel is sacrificed enough to cause issue, on track i would not want to compromise the handling however. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Jetpilot nailed it. I too hate spacers, I had to fit them on a previous car that I fitted Brembo calipers too without realising the wheels wouldnt clear them (doh!) and disliked the way the car handled afterwards. Yet here I am about to do the same thing to my Nissan 350z, why? Because 98% of my driving is sedate where any negatives wouldn't impact and I don't have the ~£1600 lying around for a proper set of wheels and rubber to do it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Junior Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 Don't get me wrong, I get the concept, but for me a set of 15mm spacers on my old Spider had very noticeable consequences to the handling and not for the better. It just seems strange to me that so many Zed owners go for massive 25mm spacers but hardly anyone ever seems to comment on any detrimental handling consequences. I would have expected here to be more discussion about it. All I have found is the odd comment in threads occasionally. Thought it would be interesting to try to stir up some conversation about how much of a difference people have noticed to their handling and what their thoughts are having lived with this sort of set up for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Hardly anyone ever seems to comment on any negative impact to the handling profile of their cars after doing this. It's a topic that's been covered ad nauseam with the many negatives compared to the one positive. Some people who want something, in this case spacers, won't acknowledge negatives and thus convince themselves (and later others) that there aren't any. Eventually those who acknowledge the negatives simply get tired of even trying, hence don't. Then you end up here with the situation that spacers are often demanded as much as suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I think everyone knows its a bodge which is why you dont hear complaints, they knew it would happen but as they've achieved what they set out to do (fix the recessed wheels) they are happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I love the way people can start denouncing things IE spacers, and then fit wider aftermarket wheels with higher offsets, which do exactly the same while its true that fitting wheels or spacers will place slightly more strain on the components, unless they are excessive, its not suddenly going to cause catastrophic failure. And if you do fit wheels or spacers you may need to adjust the alignment from the std settings in order to not get adverse affects, I have also fitted both to different cars in the past and had no terrible side effects, but then if your going to widen the track, you would of course re think the geometry........wouldn't you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan350Z Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I've only just installed my spacers so can't comment on the difference of handling yet, but I chose to go for less extreme widths (15mm front, 20mm rears) as I was also worried about the negative effects of handling. At these widths the wheels now fill most of the arches and don't look as obviously "retracted" as OEM. However on reading about the negative effects on handling it doesn't appear that many users have had reliability issues. I think installing lowering springs causes significantly more wear on the suspension in contrast to the installation of spacers but I stand to be corrected. My personal opinion reflects those of Jetpilot and Sargara: the benefit of having wheels that look like they fit is experienced 100% of the time I drive the car, versus perhaps the 10% of compromised handling when the car is driven enthusiastically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan350Z Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I love the way people can start denouncing things IE spacers, and then fit wider aftermarket wheels with higher offsets, which do exactly the same while its true that fitting wheels or spacers will place slightly more strain on the components, unless they are excessive, its not suddenly going to cause catastrophic failure. And if you do fit wheels or spacers you may need to adjust the alignment from the std settings in order to not get adverse affects, I have also fitted both to different cars in the past and had no terrible side effects, but then if your going to widen the track, you would of course re think the geometry........wouldn't you Should I therefore consider 4 wheel alignment? Are there further implications to the reliability aspect of the suspension set up under normal driving conditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 A 4 wheel alignment certainly wouldnt hurt but they will just revert to factory settings that their system tells them to. I think what Tricky-Ricky was referring to was having a proper geometry setup that takes into account the changes you have made to the car, however finding someone that is knowledgeable enough to do this is another matter entirely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I love the way people can start denouncing things IE spacers, and then fit wider aftermarket wheels with higher offsets, which do exactly the same while its true that fitting wheels or spacers will place slightly more strain on the components, unless they are excessive, its not suddenly going to cause catastrophic failure. And if you do fit wheels or spacers you may need to adjust the alignment from the std settings in order to not get adverse affects, I have also fitted both to different cars in the past and had no terrible side effects, but then if your going to widen the track, you would of course re think the geometry........wouldn't you Should I therefore consider 4 wheel alignment? Are there further implications to the reliability aspect of the suspension set up under normal driving conditions? Getting the geometry sorted is never a bad thing, 15 and 20mm on std wheels is not going to have any great impact unless its also very low, which will put the geometry out in any case, nor will it have any great impact on wear, if however you then fit wheels that have a higher offset, you could then end up with a total track increase of well over 50mm which would impact both handling and wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan350Z Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I'm personally on stock suspension and Rays, and don't plan to modify either in the immediate future! Admittedly the slightly larger than ideal gap between the wheels and the arches does tickle my Zeditis but if I ever do revisit this gap I'd probably be combining wider, lighter wheels with coil overs or springs. HFCs, plenum spacer, panel filter and remap must take priority (probably closely followed by a Hide n Seat retrim - they do some awesome stuff!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 My 350Z handled better with wider wheels and 25mm spacers, no question, and on my old S13 I wouldnt be able to tell you whether the spacers were on or not. They dont actually alter any geometry, why should it be any different fro using a wheel with an additional xx mm of back spacing on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 It just seems strange to me that so many Zed owners go for massive 25mm spacers but hardly anyone ever seems to comment on any detrimental handling consequences. As my other post, its not something i am going to notice at road speeds, on this occasion, form over function. I notice a difference with 25mm spacers but that may be a lot more to do with the fact they would then be coupled to a set heavy old 19's. Interesting that you are basing your discussion on previous usage, but have not yet tried a zed with 25mm spacers, so maybe no one complains because there is no difference? Ruling them out because they affected one car is like saying, i am never going to get another blow job because the last girl who gave me was sh*t 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan350Z Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Interestingly enough I understand the Nismo 350Z sports 18x9" in the front and 19x10" wheels in the rear. Would one assume they have completely re-tuned the "geometry" for that set up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnymonno Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I ran my 370 with 25mm spacers before I fitted a set of wider Nismo wheels and noticed no difference but it looked a hell of a lot better I also did 8 laps of the Nurburgring with them on with no issues 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Cue the flood of "Spacers made my car slow!" and "Spacers make no difference!" posts. They will make a difference. You can feel it. If the trade off is worth it then go ahead, some don't care and some do. As for me, I'll only fit them if I'm not adding any weight over stock. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsexr Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Its all about the center line through the wheel in relation to the geometry of the top and bottom ball joints. A correct offset wider wheel will retain this geometry where as spacers will not as its moves the center line of the wheel further out. Many people will not notice if the affect is detrimental much in the way that a noisy exhaust makes the car seem faster. Most of the feel good factor is in your head because you know it looks better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsexr Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Some interesting info here http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/htup-0807-honda-wheel-offset-guide-faq-tips-biggest-lip-wheel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Well I changed everything the springs the ARB's the wheel width the offset and the ride height and it made a difference. Of course after all the changes I had a 4 wheel alignment done for fast road use as you would, it has certainly made a difference the car is tighter more positive and feels more planted, now if you wanted the "stock feel" this would be a bad thing as you could say its to hard to twitchy and stiff on bends. So I agree with the OP it makes a difference but if you were actually trying to make a difference then surely that's a good thing isn't if? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Junior Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 Thanks for your input chaps, interesting reading. Sorry for slow reply - typing one handed as had an accident with a kitchen knife yesterday! I am sure adjusting the geo would go some way to offsetting the negative handling characteristics of the spacers, but as someone said i guess the challenge is finding someone with both the technology and a deep enough understanding to create a new bespoke set-up. The reason I am so intrigued is because like many others, I feel the standard wheel offset really lets the car down in terms of aesthetics, but i am cautious of ruining the drive of the car as I love its natural suspension tune. I guess I just need to buy some and try it for myself as I can always get some of the money back by selling them on the forum if I am not happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Errr ......... no, you are massively over thinking this. As Ive said, I didnt like mine with 5/20mm spacers but loved it with 25mm, your best bet is to put them on and see how you get on with it. Creating bespoke suspension setups so you can run your wheels 20mm wider is madness, the chances are you wont even notice the difference in the first place. I lowered my car 55mm, put 2 inch wider 18s on the front and 3 inch wider 19's on the back as well as adding 25mm spacers all round and the car handled noticeably better, no question, you may be pleasantly surprised and even if you arent remember you can always take them off ......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbon.Ninja Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I love the way people can start denouncing things IE spacers, and then fit wider aftermarket wheels with higher offsets, which do exactly the same while its true that fitting wheels or spacers will place slightly more strain on the components, unless they are excessive, its not suddenly going to cause catastrophic failure. And if you do fit wheels or spacers you may need to adjust the alignment from the std settings in order to not get adverse affects, I have also fitted both to different cars in the past and had no terrible side effects, but then if your going to widen the track, you would of course re think the geometry........wouldn't you Let's have a look in different perspective.. pro and cons and in way what tricky Ricky said is right but pending on angle of view.... Pro of spacer:- Widening the track either by spacer of offset, this would reduce the weight transfer. That's good news in a broad brush (as the theory is we can utilise grip on both inner and outer tyre. ) As tyre grip relates to vertical load you put on a given corner. Increment of vertical load you the more grip you get ( that's why F1 aero as an example) but it has a tip over point, where overloading the grip falls rather rapidly. Con:- For both spacer and offsets, the input position is further outboard. That's means the moment arm is greater than standard. (Moment is force x distance). Therefore the input into chassis components would be far higher. (Bushes as an example) Durability will fall for sure. For spacer now in a mechanical bolt joint, the number of components within the sandwich increase the clamp load decreases. The stiffness of the joint can fall. Because previously in stand format, you have the friction due to clamp force between wheel mounting face brake disc and brake disc to hub and bearing assemblely. Now considering a spacer added.... You have wheel to spacer, spacer to brake disc then brake disc to hub and bearing. Therefore in order to achieve the same clamp force and the force to be less than friction forces between the component would be less. Therefore up in torque of the wheel bolt would be required. Then of course to validate the up in torque properly, some scientific tightening experiment will be needed to ensure the stud or bolt are not into the yield proportion of the torque vs angle graph. Just my own 2p... 我從使用 Tapatalk çš„ Nexus 6 ç™¼é€ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nissanman312 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I have 20 mm on the rear and cant really remember how it handled before to be honest I would take them off but think it would look so pants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Never understood the paranoia about wheel spacers for every day road use, whereas wheel changes with offsets and/or increased width that effectively put the outside tyre edge in the same position seem to be accepted with little mention of the down-sides. Yes those who track their cars will notice a difference but then suspension geometry/changes & tyres will also effect the driving feel. And as for the safety aspect, given spacers (and wider wheels) are widely used in all forms of motorsport and the quality products they have proved to be safe in that extreme use. But that said, the 350 got its reputation as one of the best driving cars 'out of the box' but like many I resorted to using spacers on the 370 simply for the looks and found they made precious litle difference to the feel of the car. Changing tyres (to firstly Vreds and then MPSS) made by far the biggest differences....and improvement to the driving pleasure 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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