The NA Build - With Substance

[TT350]

LS swap then two turbo's?

[StevoD]

Used Ls swap don't seem too bad an idea either though http://m.ebay.com/itm/171796645229

 

yeah thats what I was 'budgeting for', but LS3 - Stateside (albeit LHD) you can get most of the conversion parts, right down to 'plug and play' wiring harness converter kits! - Custom headers from a UK race / rally shop if adapting LHD ones pointless, mounts etc Sikky...and your best friend the race mechanic fed with endless supply of chips ..possibly not that easy.....but what a car, basically pick any power you want / think you can handle, as the LS variants and ready tuning options is just a pick & mix he mutters with incredible naivety..

 

All I will say is, i hope Wasso pops by this thread and lets you know just how easy it is, or Keyser or Buster who are working on the project, sorry did i say easy.....

 

Or Bizz

[Pritchard]

I'm due to see Mark @ Abbey soon, once he finds time to squeeze me in for another jobby.

i'll run it past him.

 

yes labour wise, the majority will be getting done by a garage. As i am in the realms of the unknown and expensive parts, i want someone else to have liability for a bad fitment

 

Yes the LS conversion would be perfect, but i thought we assertained its well clear of £10k, its not even close to a drop in lump. dashboard, eletronics, wiring looms, gearbox etc etc to name the few points i know of (checkout Wasso's Suzanne thread)

so that rules it out.

 

with regard to dynos, yes i agree they dont tell the full story,, and also i am narrowly focusing on peak HP gains for a figure.

but the reason why i am focusing on dynos at all, is that it is the only proof that a part actually adds value to the power of a car. ((unless someone regularly drags or circuits. but this has even more variables than a dyno. and you cant sell a lap time on a brochure!)

 

if i could get it in budget, i would love to simply bore&stroke, and cam it. but dissasembling that bottom end is serious man hours!

[Jetpilot]

As previously asked, whats your dislike of fi, is it from any experience?

[andy10v]

Mark said NA tuning is expensive bang for buck

 

I tuned a built 350Z Rev Up a few weeks a go , chap drove over from Denmark for Abbey to tune his car, rods/pistons/Cosworth cylinder heads/cams, headers , Cosworth Plenum, basically had the Cosworth kit fitted, after extensive tuning it had gain around 30bhp over a stock Rev Up car, all the torque/power over 4500 rpm.

 

I think for the same money but using a S/C you would of gain around 100bhp over a stock car and not had to work the car so hard.

 

NA tuning for big bhp is expensive

 

Component selection is critical as everything has to work together, eg fitting a high lift race cam will not give much benefit if there are other greater restrictions, but you will still have other negatives.

[Pritchard]

As previously asked, whats your dislike of fi, is it from any experience?

sorry, must have missed that.

but you're probably going to ridicule my answer. (and its probably going to spark a war!)

 

 

i've always gone NA in previous projects. so its a little of sticking to what i know.

and its a little of a personal dislike to the notion of forced induction - i regard it as cheating. NA tuning is about the pursuit of 100% volumetric efficency, the closer you get the better and the greater the sense of acheivement.

with FI, VE is completely disregarded. you double or triple the VE with ease. You want more power - new pulley and a remap later - POOF like magic, more power

 

wheres the fun in that?

 

 

Only my opinion. im sure it conflicts greatly with other peoples.

 

 

Andy,

yea that Denmark build was one of the references i made in the opening post, but i couldnt find dynos for it.

but again, this is a reference of both a cosworth head, and headwork, that hasnt yielded great results.

 

when ive seen the word 'Cosworth' or the word 'headwork' on a dyno plot, its followed with an owner in tears over his results (with one single exception i have found, out of 5)

[Ekona]

So your dislike of Fi is theoretical, rather than physical? Can't say I understand that at all, but each to their own.

 

Also, your sig is kinda insulting to the people that are going to try and help you here on this.

[Pritchard]

Sigs been there for ages. but it works both ways.

[Bodyboarder81]

Sigs been there for ages. but it works both ways.

 

The sig is quite funny as aren't you paying someone else to do all this work ?

 

Each to their own ...... But I am genuinely interested to see what sort of gains you will achieve and costs this route will take .

[gumpy000]

This is going round and round. We all know the only way for more power is FI.

don't go and waste £8k of ur harding working money on an old car that ul never see the money back for.

Go out an buy either a 370z if u want to stay with the forum or buy alternative makes and enjoy the power already. Or put the huge amount of money into the house u were buying.

 

I don't mean to be an arse on this but if I had that sort of money to throw into a car I would buy something newer and less mileage, already with the power.

 

Il shut up now.

[GriffGTV]

Used Ls swap don't seem too bad an idea either though http://m.ebay.com/itm/171796645229

 

yeah thats what I was 'budgeting for', but LS3 - Stateside (albeit LHD) you can get most of the conversion parts, right down to 'plug and play' wiring harness converter kits! - Custom headers from a UK race / rally shop if adapting LHD ones pointless, mounts etc Sikky...and your best friend the race mechanic fed with endless supply of chips ..possibly not that easy.....but what a car, basically pick any power you want / think you can handle, as the LS variants and ready tuning options is just a pick & mix he mutters with incredible naivety..

 

All I will say is, i hope Wasso pops by this thread and lets you know just how easy it is, or Keyser or Buster who are working on the project, sorry did i say easy.....

 

...I can barely imagine...we can only imagine....tis a shame its not a straight forward proposition....

[TT350]

[Drayvn]

I have Injen Long Tube Intakes, PPE Longtube Manifolds and a Motordyne Shockwave V2 exhaust and i'm producing 301.4bhp at the wheels on an HR engine.

 

Though i need to get it back to Abbey to get more tuning done. Last time i was there they informed me i didn't have enough back pressure, so must find a way to get more air into her i guess

Edited August 15, 2015 by Drayvn

[Bodyboarder81]

I have Injen Long Tube Intakes, PPE Longtube Manifolds and a Motordyne Shockwave V2 exhaust and i'm producing 301.4bhp at the wheels on an HR engine.

 

Though i need to get it back to Abbey to get more tuning done. Last time i was there they informed me i didn't have enough back pressure, so must find a way to get more air into her i guess

 

That's pretty good going ..... Is that whp of hub hp?

[nissanman312]

This is going round and round. We all know the only way for more power is FI.

don't go and waste £8k of ur harding working money on an old car that ul never see the money back for.

Go out an buy either a 370z if u want to stay with the forum or buy alternative makes and enjoy the power already. Or put the huge amount of money into the house u were buying.

 

I don't mean to be an arse on this but if I had that sort of money to throw into a car I would buy something newer and less mileage, already with the power.

 

Il shut up now.

 

I've done it on my 370z do I love it yes.

Would I do it again erghhhh no money is to hard to come by unless you have some crazy payed job or your own business.

 

I would buy out of the box fast and take the hit on depreciation as there's nothing you can do about that

 

What guys said to me on here was just make sure it's not a fad as when your money's gone it's gone

 

Good luck and enjoy your chosen path

[Jetpilot]

As previously asked, whats your dislike of fi, is it from any experience?

sorry, must have missed that.

but you're probably going to ridicule my answer. (and its probably going to spark a war!)

 

 

i've always gone NA in previous projects. so its a little of sticking to what i know.

and its a little of a personal dislike to the notion of forced induction - i regard it as cheating. NA tuning is about the pursuit of 100% volumetric efficency, the closer you get the better and the greater the sense of acheivement.

with FI, VE is completely disregarded. you double or triple the VE with ease. You want more power - new pulley and a remap later - POOF like magic, more power

 

wheres the fun in that?

 

 

Only my opinion. im sure it conflicts greatly with other peoples.

 

 

Andy,

yea that Denmark build was one of the references i made in the opening post, but i couldnt find dynos for it.

but again, this is a reference of both a cosworth head, and headwork, that hasnt yielded great results.

 

when ive seen the word 'Cosworth' or the word 'headwork' on a dyno plot, its followed with an owner in tears over his results (with one single exception i have found, out of 5)

 

A very purist thought process, I dont think you will be ridiclued for that, its your car and your money, fill your boots.

 

As for a war or cheating, as said elsewhere, the fi boys will not care one jot thats what you think and I am sure they are having plenty of fun cheating.

 

I am not sure a big lazy v6 Is the place to apply the theory to though, different story if you get it revving up to 8500 or 9k but that wont happen so whilst it may appeal to your beliefs, imho, you are applying it to the wrong car

[Toon Chris]

I understand that purist VE argument. The urge to get as near as possibel to a theoretical (but impossible) 100%. Buit is that really what you are chasing?

 

As Vizard once said, there is no substitute for CCs. Dig deep, take a breath and bore and stroke it.

Unless you are trying to impress Nissan with your ability to tune their engine there is no reason to stay purist on the block. If your unchangeable criteria is only the base engine and not to use FI then to me I can't see why you wouldn't spend the money on getting the base engine uprated first, even if it strains the budget for other toys you might like. Every 1% gain you get on more CCs is going to give you proportionally more, and you may be able to avoid many more expensive mods simply by having more grunt to start with.

No point strapping an expensive saddle to a donkey. Turn your donkey into a stallion first and the great saddle doesn't matter any more (as an allegory thats the best I could come up with on the spot!).

 

So is your purpose to get more power with no FI, or is it a bit of playing with bolt-ons because you like research and fiddling, or because you want to be unique? Sorry if it sounds critical, I don't mean to be offensive, only direct. None of those reasons are necessarily bad, but I do think examining what some of the underlying drive you have for doing this is going to be worthwhile. There could be a lot of pain, expense and hard work ahead, and a lot of dissapointment too. You could blow your budget on things that simply don't work out. If it has to be this engine and it has to be NA then isn't it more sensible to go down a route that absolutely *guarantees* more power? Bore and stroke.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Toon Chris

[Pritchard]

No point strapping an expensive saddle to a donkey. Turn your donkey into a stallion...

 

 

brilliant

[Hell presidente]

Buy this month's Banzai magazine, or just have a look in the shop, but there is an R32 with a 350odd bhp VQ35DE wedged in, running some lovely ITB's.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Aaron, buy this and finish it

 

http://www.350z-uk.com/topic/100824-feeler-breaking-2jz-swapped-z/

[Tricky-Ricky]

Good luck with the build, although I feel you may be ultimately disappointed for your expenditure,

Two things to remember when N/A tuning, and as the proverbial "no replacement for displacement" has already been mentioned,

 

The first is to treat the motor as nothing more than an air pump, the more air you can get in, the more power you get out, so static airflow is important, but ultimately dynamic airflow is the key, N/A engines rely on their pumping ability, and both cam design and compression play a major part, closely followed by intake and exhaust design .

As you say there is little about valve and port design of the VQ, but I'm sure there is room for improvement.

 

And IMO with the VQ the one big fall down is the plenum, obviously ITBs are king in this respect, but if your not worried about a bonnet bulge, I would get someone in the know to redesign the plenum/throttle body setup, backed up with flow testing,

Next would be a set of "properly" designed headers.

And don't forget if any one part of the "pump" that restricts flow will kill power.

 

Cam lift, cam timing and duration are very important in making the best of an N/A engine as with the right setup they will aid cylinder filling, kind of like FI, and that will help power, and don't forget that you may also need uprated valve springs to run suitable cams.

Finally is ECU tuning, get this wrong and all the hard work goes to waste.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Tricky-Ricky

[Juggalo]

For what it's worth, I think you should go for it. It'll be a really interesting discovery whatever the outcome.

The naysayers have some good points, but we're British, and doing stupid @*!# is how we conquered the world.

I saw some guys put an Z20LEH engine (Astra VXR) in a Fiat 500. Everyone said it was stupid and it wouldn't work. It works and it was an awesome idea!

 

/2 cents

Edited August 18, 2015 by Juggalo

[StevoD]

speak with Michael Gardner canadian time attack driver hes made 335whp from his DE although i think that might be on E85

 

Or speak with Aaron at NWP as he has built some stupid fast altimas powered by vq35de whilst keeping NA

 

Edited August 18, 2015 by StevoD

[Drayvn]

I have Injen Long Tube Intakes, PPE Longtube Manifolds and a Motordyne Shockwave V2 exhaust and i'm producing 301.4bhp at the wheels on an HR engine.

 

Though i need to get it back to Abbey to get more tuning done. Last time i was there they informed me i didn't have enough back pressure, so must find a way to get more air into her i guess

 

That's pretty good going ..... Is that whp of hub hp?

 

Thats whp.

 

Check out Sasha Anis on youtube if you want any ideas on NA tuning, probably the only person i have found that has taken the VQ platform to the extreme.

 

I believe at the moment he is producing 414WHP with a 3.7L (was originally a 3.5L HR engine but changed the crankcase and many other bits) He has a custom made straight through exhaust, Jenvey ITBs but with custom made trumpets and a whole slew of other bits and pieces. I believe he is also taken the rev limit up to 9500prm though from what he has said he wants to go to 10500pm. Look at the OnPoint Dyno website. He has multiple blogs on his progress.

 

At the moment he has just had a custom gearbox made for sequential shifting. And i might be wrong but with no need for the clutch pedal.

 

Dunno if this will entice the guys who wants to NA tune their Zs. It definitely does me!

[Bodyboarder81]

I have Injen Long Tube Intakes, PPE Longtube Manifolds and a Motordyne Shockwave V2 exhaust and i'm producing 301.4bhp at the wheels on an HR engine.

 

Though i need to get it back to Abbey to get more tuning done. Last time i was there they informed me i didn't have enough back pressure, so must find a way to get more air into her i guess

 

That's pretty good going ..... Is that whp of hub hp?

 

Thats whp.

 

Check out Sasha Anis on youtube if you want any ideas on NA tuning, probably the only person i have found that has taken the VQ platform to the extreme.

 

I believe at the moment he is producing 414WHP with a 3.7L (was originally a 3.5L HR engine but changed the crankcase and many other bits) He has a custom made straight through exhaust, Jenvey ITBs but with custom made trumpets and a whole slew of other bits and pieces. I believe he is also taken the rev limit up to 9500prm though from what he has said he wants to go to 10500pm. Look at the OnPoint Dyno website. He has multiple blogs on his progress.

 

At the moment he has just had a custom gearbox made for sequential shifting. And i might be wrong but with no need for the clutch pedal.

 

Dunno if this will entice the guys who wants to NA tune their Zs. It definitely does me!

 

That on abbeys dyno ? If so that's hub bhp, about 20 bhp down on whp . Even if that's the case 280 at the wheels is pretty good going for bolt on's !