350zroadsterGT Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 http://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fdriftingtuning.com%2Fhybrid-gtr-what-does-2018-hold-for-the-ring-slayer%2F&h=xAQEmXN_i&enc=AZOyKTR9BdaZIQBrrIqbKLc0UZoM-l9LhAWSYIIHiyD8mGmBHywnNdDqp1LkuNNEO8siTTgrYzW-guqTb8ppMuJE1HWFCZ6VWFDwHyjgUzPwkmBMToAf1XaEMhHWQiJFjF2NMO3H1lGSC-Qzimw9KI0C1a_EO99NM9zpDshLHoDgQqZunkeX3WLWECYlSXou8Q_u33X6-VF6LvP6QTyKJmVP&s=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Would you like to try that link again? http://driftingtuning.com/hybrid-gtr-what-does-2018-hold-for-the-ring-slayer/ More useless speculation, I'm afraid. Given that Nissan have pulled their LMP1 car from competition this year to concentrate on development (thank god, should never have been racing in the first place!), any links between that and the R36 will have to wait. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
350zroadsterGT Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 Nismo technicians at the local dealership were talking about it a few weeks back, said they needed training on the hybrid systems and said they had been told by Nissan they would be in by 2018. The new pics certainly look more like a production model than the concept shown last year. We can hope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Love the convertible R35! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Nismo technicians at the local dealership were talking about it a few weeks back, said they needed training on the hybrid systems and said they had been told by Nissan they would be in by 2018. The new pics certainly look more like a production model than the concept shown last year. We can hope... Those pics are knocked up by some art student who is bored and wants to get their work out there. No chance those Nissan techs were told anything like that by anyone who knows anything, they're just reading crap off the internet as well. Think about it: This is one of the most highly specialised and wanted performance cars in the world, that will no doubt set new boundaries in performance. Why on earth would Nissan be leaking top-secret details of training that's at least two years away to a couple of random lowly technicians?! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveallen1999 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Dreams eventually become reality. Nice post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
350zroadsterGT Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 So you think they will release the car, then, start thinking about training all the thousands of technicians around the world? Of course they will need to start the training program way in advance of its release if cars go wrong on day one they will need the know how to fix them and with the hybrid systems onboard its not going to be a 1 hr webinar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZMANALEX Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Nissan will definitely produce the Hybrid GTR. Expect it in the showrooms by 2018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 So you think they will release the car, then, start thinking about training all the thousands of technicians around the world? Of course they will need to start the training program way in advance of its release if cars go wrong on day one they will need the know how to fix them and with the hybrid systems onboard its not going to be a 1 hr webinar... Not at all. I just don't think for one second they'll be telling Joe Bloggs the mechanic working 9-5 at Nissan in Bournemouth anything at all about the new GT-R until it's been announced to the public. There'll still be another year at least until it's released after that, plenty of time for training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veilside z Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Interesting. Never underestimate the talent of the Japs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) I'm not sure how Nissan will be able to translate hybrid power trains from a racing car into a road machine. The KERS - MGU-H/MGU-K systems in the current F1 cars are horrifically complicated, when ever I read about them they sound like trying to build a turbo charger out of computer chips...and I'm still not sure how the MGH-H unit actually works The role of 'batteries' found in F1 cars are not utilised in anything like the way they are used in current road going battery EVs or PEHVs. From what I understand the hybrid systems in racing cars are there to improve efficiency of the internal combustion unit - by recapturing wasted heat/kinetic energy through magnetic fly wheels (basically a mechanical battery). These systems work on the track because your pushing the internal combustion unit to it's limit nearly all the time, so have plenty of 'wasted' energy to recapture. On a normal road car these systems will simply add weight with a moderate improvement in efficiency - these things are still essentially internal combustion machines. So I don't think you guys need to worry about the GTR going all 'green/hybrid' (yet), because fundamentally it's still an old fashioned 'manly' oil burner ....Though I have to say I wouldn't want to try to fix one when it goes wrong Edited August 9, 2015 by gangzoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I'm not sure how Nissan will be able to translate hybrid power trains from a racing car into a road machine. The KERS - MGU-H/MGU-K systems in the current F1 cars are horrifically complicated, when ever I read about them they sound like trying to build a turbo charger out of computer chips...and I'm still not sure how the MGH-H unit actually works The role of 'batteries' found in F1 cars are not utilised in anything like the way they are used in current road going battery EVs or PEHVs. From what I understand the hybrid systems in racing cars are there to improve efficiency of the internal combustion unit - by recapturing wasted heat/kinetic energy through magnetic fly wheels (basically a mechanical battery). These systems work on the track because your pushing the internal combustion unit to it's limit nearly all the time, so have plenty of 'wasted' energy to recapture. On a normal road car these systems will simply add weight with a moderate improvement in efficiency - these things are still essentially internal combustion machines. So I don't think you guys need to worry about the GTR going all 'green/hybrid' (yet), because fundamentally it's still an old fashioned 'manly' oil burner ....Though I have to say I wouldn't want to try to fix one when it goes wrong erm have you heard of the 918 and P1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Exactly. Chuck a couple of motors onto the axles and BOOM instant extra grunt. It doesn't need to be as complex as the systems in race cars, and indeed that would never work due to the differing demands between road and track use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) erm have you heard of the 918 and P1? What do you think happens to the performance of the P1/918 when their respective battery packs become deplete and there is no charge left to power the electric motor?? A P1/918 on track will be able to re-generate 'some' of the energy used up through brake-regen, but battery based brake regen only recaptures at best 30% of the kinetic energy, it's not very efficient. Just had a look the P1 has a 4.7 kWh battery, which is a very small amount of charge. Unless McLaern have found a way to defy the laws of physics, the battery will only supply the electric motor with power for a very short period of time. Ofcourse clever electronics can be used to use the motor very sparingly to help 'boost' the 700bhp+ ICE motor at certain rev point etc...BUT essentially it's a very very quick petrol powered hyper car. The F1 systems are very different and the electric motor provides significant power ALL the time. The MGU-H system in F1 cars have alot of potential, because that system can potentially supply a unlimited amount of power based on heat generation, which any ICE unit will always be doing. Ultra-capcitors could work but they are too heavy at present. The fly wheel based KERS system in F1 cars is very clever way to extract and use kinetic braking energy quickly, but hard to engineer into road cars. You can charge the battery through the ICE unit, but that will loss you efficiency interms of less power to the driven wheels due to having to divert some power to driving an inverter. Electric motors are constrained by the same laws of physics as everything else. You can put motors into the car but you still need power to supply the motors. Batteries works, but you need alot of them - A Tesla has about 500kg worth. Even than it only stores 85kWh which is just about enough to run the electric motor in the Leaf (80KW) for a 1 hour before been empty. A P85D is rated at 515 KW, so will able to deplete it's 85kWh battery in about 10 minutes at peak power delivery. Hybrid systems will exist for track/race cars for a while yet before the battery technology in the labs make it into production, and than your be able to store enough electric charge without relying on an ICE unit for motion. But that's about 5-10 years away yet....So as I've said, you guys have no fear of the ICE dying out in track focused cars for a while....yet Edited August 9, 2015 by gangzoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 erm have you heard of the 918 and P1? What do you think happens to the performance of the P1/918 when their respective battery packs become deplete and there is no charge left to power the electric motor?? A P1/918 on track will be able to re-generate 'some' of the energy used up through brake-regen, but battery based brake regen only recaptures at best 30% of the kinetic energy, it's not very efficient. Just had a look the P1 has a 4.7 kWh battery, which is a very small amount of charge. Unless McLaern have found a way to defy the laws of physics, the battery will only supply the electric motor with power for a very short period of time. Ofcourse clever electronics can be used to use the motor very sparingly to help 'boost' the 700bhp+ ICE motor at certain rev point etc...BUT essentially it's a very very quick petrol powered hyper car. Which is exactly what the GT-R will be. It won't haveanything remotely like the systems found in F1. The P1's motor is used for torque fill in the range before the turbos spool, which is what makes it so monstrous. The 918 uses one motor on the rear to assist the V8, and one on the front to drive the front wheels to give 4WD. Either way would work for the GT-R, although I'd expect it to be using perhaps two motors on the rear wheels to give at least some resemblance to the LMP1 car for the sake of advertising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) It would be amazing if Nissan could find a way to shrink the MGH-H/K systems in proper race cars to work in road cars. But given they are struggling to get the system working in a race car that seems like many moons away In my view the current lot of 'hybrid' performance cars are simply conventional petrol cars using electric motors to help eliminate inherent weakness of the ICE units. Electric driven turbo chargers will be next, but the more systems you add, the more complicated things get. As much I love EVs for road cars, battery technology needs to make a serious jump before they can be used properly on a track, Aluminium air batteries seem as much of a pipe dream as hydrogen fuel cells, but Lithium - Silicon technology is getting there. With potentially x10 the storage capacity of Lithium - Graphite and cheaper cost, less weight they could make a full battery GTR viable, both interms of cost and function. The boss of Nissan has been boosting about the next Leaf having double the range of the current, so unless Nissan plans on making the Leaf twice as big, its probably the a change in battery chemistry which is going to deliver the range.....But we'll have to see what Nissan can actually put into production. Edited August 9, 2015 by gangzoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 What's really worrying is that if the new GT-R has some very complex software running some very complex hybrid systems, it could mean that modding a GT-R is either impossible or very expensive. And that would be a real shame. That's kinda why I'm hoping they go with something very simple and basic! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Quick question, which one of Nissan's F1 engins would they chose to develop for any hypothetical road car anyway? What with them having so many choices and all... What have the F1 systems got to do with any of this?! What a ridiculous conclusion to jump to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Quick question, which one of Nissan's F1 engins would they chose to develop for any hypothetical road car anyway? What with them having so many choices and all... What have the F1 systems got to do with any of this?! What a ridiculous conclusion to jump to! Because someone (not me) mentioned the link between the Nissan Le-mans development cars and technology tricking down to road cars like the GTR. The lemans machines are just as complex as the F1 setups, though I don't think Audi/Porsche have implemented the thermal regen systems like F1 have. The Nissan proposal actually isn't electric hybrid, it's purely a mechanical flywheel, and working out how to transfer mechanical energy from the flywheel to the wheels, where as the Audi/Porsche systems uses a electric/magnetic mechanical flywheel similar to the KERS systems in F1. Either way all these systems are FAR more complicated than anything seen on road cars at any price point. If any of them will ever make into road cars remains to be seen. BUT if your want better performance form with improved fuel consumption this is the way things are heading. http://www.topgear.com/car-news/motorsport/nissan’s-1250bhp-le-mans-racer-explained Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Wait f1 cars are hybrid ??? I'm confused now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Stuff What you've just done there is explain that you jumped to F1 as an example of why this can't possibly happen for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Nissan don't do F1. F1 is an irrelevant comparison here. So no, the new GT-R absolutely will not be adapted from F1 tech. Well done you for working that one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Photos are just some ones idea of what the next GTR might look like. I doubt the next car will be available by 2018, most likely availble to order. Im not a fan of the hybrid systems, because it will be a complete waste on track days, etc as the batteries woud die and then its just extra weight. On the weight front, the GTR runs 2 driveshafts and a load of other parts as the car is primarily RWD and the secondary drive system can send back power to the front wheels, so if electric motors and batteries are used, there will be a lot of other items to be removed. Technical explanation here:- http://www.autoevolution.com/news/nissan-gt-r-s-secret-attesa-e-ts-awd-system-explained-35006.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) Wait f1 cars are hybrid ??? I'm confused now F1 cars run with TWO separate energy recapture systems. 1: One is a kinetic energy recovery system that can only capture a pre-defined amount of energy per lap - This is the KERS 'boost' drivers use to give them selves a few seconds of extra power. 2: The second system is re-capturing lost heat generated by the ICE unit. This is functioning all the time, so if it goes down the car losses significant amount of power. - This is what happened to Kimi at the last race and Vettel in qualifying the race before. Without the MGU-H system working the electric motor becomes just dead weight hence the car becomes utterly un-compeitive. It's a stupidly complex system that is mirrored to large degree by the all the top le-mans teams, the aim is essentially to find engineering solutions to the meet the demands of track driving, which is to capture, store, release as much energy as possible for as little weight as possible. These systems are nothing like the conventional 'hybrid' setups in road cars like the P1/918, which rely solely on batteries as the energy store/discharge - with brake-regen that isn't all that efficient. The current battery technology isn't really good enough for concerted track use, better technology is coming but still more than a few years away from hitting the road. If Nissan was able to truly put a reliable thermal energy capture system into the next GTR, it would make the P1/918 look like shopping carts. This is simply because the GTR will than be able to use any electric motor much more often, where as a P1/918 has to ration how much electric boost is available due to the very limited electric power supplied by the battery. Infact Nissan could than remove all mechanical parts needed in a conventional 4 WD setup, and simply use the electric motors to drive the front wheels without having to worry about the batteries running flat due to having a ultra efficient thermal energy capture system. The GTR has always pushed the technological barriers, a hybrid GTR will be the next logical step, it's simply a case of just how much complex/reliable energy system Nissan can come up with.....Judging by LMP1 car, it might take quite a while for any of this tech to make it onto road cars Edited August 9, 2015 by gangzoom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Stuff What you've just done there is explain that you jumped to F1 as an example of why this can't possibly happen for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Nissan don't do F1. F1 is an irrelevant comparison here. So no, the new GT-R absolutely will not be adapted from F1 tech. Well done you for working that one out. I have no idea what your on about, but the Nissan LMP1 is apparently shooting for 1250bhp from a 550bhp 3.0 V6 ICE lump. That's the kind of technology which will have massive impacts on performance road cars at some point. It's a case of working out the technology on the track and than transferring it to the road.....Why on earth anyone needs a 1000bhp+ road car is a separate issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWZ Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I reckon this'll go head to head straight with the new Supra, gonna be interesting times. Get saving guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts