gangzoom Posted July 18, 2015 Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) I can grasp it, so no need for your subtle dig, but it isnt happening is it, you just believe everything tesla writes in true fanboi fashion. The yech isnt there, the supply isnt there, your just blindly following the speil I'm not sure why you think I'm just blindly following anyone, I have a perfectly good understanding on how to critically read literature and come up with my own conclusion. The technology is actually already here, and its good enough to relive some-> alot of the demands in regards to electric power generation. Indeed if you look economics of it, as battery costs fall (which they are doing), it will simply become a matter of economics - Nothing to do with environmental concerns. After initial infrastructure investment, solar/wind etc power is 'Free' because the Sun/Wind is free to everyone. http://www.thousandh..._03-05-2015.pdf http://cleantechnica...r-in-australia/ http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-33544831 This article was written in 2003 (Same year as Tesla was founded), where an Saudi oil minster said “The Stone Age did not end for lack of stone, and the Oil age will end long before the world runs out of oil.†The main holdback at the time (2003) to stop the developed world from moving away from oil was the need for oil in transportation. http://www.economist.com/node/2155717 Fast forward 10 years or so, and now we have real viable transport solutions that no longer requires oil. Exxonmobil has been developing battery technology for while. These are the views of the oil rich countries/oil companies - not just of hippies dancing around some camp fire http://www.exxonmobi...es_battery.aspx http://oilprice.com/...l-Age-Last.html Edited July 18, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEUS Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 So now we have you both arguing on two threads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Fast forward 10 years or so, and now we have real viable transport solutions that no longer requires oil. Really? So the manufacture of electric vehicles, or electricity for that matter, uses absolutely no oil in any way does it? What about getting those EV's from the plants to the showrooms or customers? We do not currently have any such solutions that do not require oil at all, viable (which EV's are a questionable at best) or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Lets just hope then the planet can cope with more plundering of its natural resources to make all the batteries we need to store all the electric necessary, anyone see any similarities to oil? As Frankie Boyle replied on twitter to Richard Branson when he said, Its time for bold leadership and conservation for the artic, Fb's response: You own an airline you mad c**t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMballistic Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Fast forward 10 years or so, and now we have real viable transport solutions that no longer requires oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Can a mod not combine all these Tesla/Leaf threads please? Good debate is fine, but we keep treading old ground because it's all over the place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Can a mod not combine all these Tesla/Leaf threads please? Good debate is fine, but we keep treading old ground because it's all over the place. Might blow a (mod) fuse putting all that electric stuff together........ Maybe when I am a little more sober 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEUS Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Just what we need a drunken moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) I'm waiting for Apple to release iCar 4s before I'll be buying a car with engines on mute... Edited July 18, 2015 by octet@TORQEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Just what we need a drunken moderator Hey, it is the 3rd Saturday evening in the month when I'm allowed a drink 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 ssssooorrright - I'mm not pished yet - I'lllllllllllll doo ti in a mmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Impressive stats, but it's not for an old fashioned petrolhead like me. I'll stick with my glorious V6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne370Z Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) I think it would be more impressive (and useful) if they made big improvements in the range and charging times rather than unnecessarily quick 0 - 60 times. Edited July 18, 2015 by Wayne370Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) Actually Tesla have made big changes to the range over the last 24 months aside from 0-60 times. The 2014 base spec £50k car use to only come with a 60kWh battery, no free supercharging, no live software updating etc. 12 month on and £50k buys you a 70kWh battery, includes free for life supercharging and all the tech you need. The top spec 85kWh battery has also been upgraded to 90kWh, and it's been hinted a 100kWh version will be with us next year. The largest battery in any other EV is a Kia Sol with 30kWh. The latest update has seen the introduction of a Silicon Anode rather than using Carbon in the battery. In theory this technology will improve energy density by at least 20% and up to 50%, hence a 100kWh battery pack is almost a certainty. The rate of charging on the Model S is also improving. Current rate of charge is 120 KW, but they have just introduced a liquid cooled charging cable which will likely see 150 KW+. Rumours suggest they are pushing for 100 miles of range for every 10 minutes plugged in - roughly 180 KW. Finally there is the 0-60 time. The power generated by an electric motor is limited by the size of the magnet, the density of the coils, and most importantly the amount of charge/amps that can be moved from the battery to the motor. The P90D has the SAME motors as the P85D. The improvement in power has come from changing the design of the cable linking the battery to the motor. Previously the peak Amp delivery was 1300, this has improved to 1500....But scarily the motor can apparently handle a current of 2000 amps!!! The Model X is set to be the fastest accelerating production SUV of all time. I suspect once Tesla deploy the 100 kWh battery, and future refine the power delivery your see a <2.5 second 0-60 time and power ratings on the P100D approach 1000 BHP there wouldn't be much on the road (If anything) that can out accelerate a P100D Model S. As for the 'unnecessary' 0-60 times...You could argue anything that does 0-60 quicker than a bog standard Fiesta is 'unnecessary'. All Tesla is doing is demonstrating the performance advantage electric motors have over the internal combustion engine. Personally I cannot wait to see what's coming, but the rate at which Tesla is coming out with updates is frankly insane. The first RHD P85D are only due to arrive on the UK this month, but already it's been superseded. The Models S will be 4 years old next year in the U.S market so am sure a face-lift is on the way. It wouldn't surprise me if a 2.5 second 0-60, 100kWh battery, face-lifted Model S is put on sale before the end of 2016. I cannot think of any other car company that updates its range so quickly?? Edited July 19, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 What's the biggest issue with EVs? Range and charging times. Solve those, and these things will take off. Musk knows that the cost to do that is huge and unfeasible, so instead he puts money into giving the cars headline performance figures that do nothing except DECREASE the available range if you use them as intended. Drive the headlines, hope to increase sales that way instead of solving the actual engineering problem. Clever marketing. Good piece in CAR this month on BMW's foray into hydrogen powered cars. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) You wrote a lot of stuff there (again) Gangzoom, but what I actually read were the words "rumour", "theory" and conjecture. I have a theory that would make ICE absolutely free to run with no additional cost after the purchase price and it'll cover a billionty miles between fill ups. Rumour has it that this new tech, which should be released in the near future, will cost £6 all in for the 6800bhp V24 version. I have thus solved every problem of ever. Or something. Also, what's the point in Tesla releasing the old model over here at some point in the future when it's already outdated? And why, if it's such an awesome forray into the future of all things motorised, has it taken four years for it to make it over here anyway? Edited July 19, 2015 by ilogikal1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeezeebaba Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I'm just thankful manufacturers need to adapt to survive. We all like cars and change is sometimes hard to swallow but change things will. Once upon a time diesel was the preserve of commercial vehicles but advances in technology changed that. The future for now is hybrid small capacity petrol engines built to meet ever more stringent emissions targets. Tesla are at least exploring the option of electric only performance machines and should be applauded for taking that leap of faith. Like many others on here its about the visceral driving experience. The ICE is an integral part of that experience for me personally. This doesn't mean I'm anti electric it's quite simply a case of wanting an electric vehicle that either matches or exceeds the expectations currently delivered by a decent driving machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy_Baton Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) By the time this technology reaches the masses we won't be driving cars or owning cars. Elon Musk has stated he believes this is where the market will end up. There will still be enthusiasts, but human drivers would need to be restricted to certain roads. Edited July 19, 2015 by Randy_Baton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) What's the biggest issue with EVs? Range and charging times. Solve those, and these things will take off. Musk knows that the cost to do that is huge and unfeasible, so instead he puts money into giving the cars headline performance figures that do nothing except DECREASE the available range if you use them as intended. Drive the headlines, hope to increase sales that way instead of solving the actual engineering problem. You wrote a lot of stuff there (again) Gangzoom, but what I actually read were the words "rumour", "theory" and conjecture. Ok so maybe I wasn’t 100% clear with my last post: In regards to battery: Last June when the first RHD Model S arrived in the UK, £50K bought you: 60kWh battery = 215 mile official range Now, your £50K buys you: 70kWh battery = 260 mile official range a 10 kWh increase in base spec may not seem like much, but my Leaf only has 24 kWh battery. The latest updates also introduced Silicon coated Anodes - This is another step in improving battery capacity, in theory this will lead to a 20% increase in charge density when the technology matures. In regards to supercharging: In 2013 Tesla superchargers delivered 100KW In 2014 Supercharger were upgraded to deliver 120KW In 2015 Tesla have started to introduce liquid cooled cables, and its highly likely 150KW will be introduced soon. ALL these are FACTS not just rumours. In regards to rumours, I’ll be amazed if Tesla don’t update the top spec battery to 100kWh by the end of 2016. I may be a Tesla fan, but I’m not stupid, whilst I have means to buy a £50K Model S now, I recognise this is all very new immature technology, and the rate at which Tesla is updating its range shows this. For now I’m quite happy to wait to see how things go - Whilst enjoying my Leaf. There is a number of new battery technologies been tested by VW/Nissan/GM which are all at the prototype stage. So for now I’ll happily wait for things to carry on developing before jumping in……If you really believe the rumours, battery density is going to make a massive jump sooner rather than later, but we have to wait and see Good piece in CAR this month on BMW's foray into hydrogen powered cars. Just sayin'. There is more than enough information about the pros/cons of hydrogen fuel cell cars. The ONLY hydrogen fuel cell car you can buy now is a Hyundai, and in the UK there are currently 3 public hydrogen fuel stations. Whilst you can go and buy a battery EV from Kia/Nissan/Renault/VW/BMW right now, and use it every day. World wide have Hyundai sold less 300 of their hydrogen fuel cell cars over the last 18 months, compare that to sale figures of battery EV/Hybrids from this year. http://www.smmt.co.u...-registrations/ http://www.autoblog....missing-target/ The up and coming Toytoa Miria has 314 miles of range, barely more than a 90kWh Model S (300 miles), 0-60 is slower than my Leaf, only seats 2 in the back due to the hydrogen tank/batteries, and costs £60K AFTER a £15K ​government grant, so just as expensive as a Tesla. More importantly unlike a battery EV car which you can refuel anywhere with a plug point (such as your house), unless you live near one of the three hydrogen fuel stations, its essentially a Dodo. That's if you can get one....Even Toyota, which all their experience and money CANNOT figure out how to mass produce fuel cells, hence the Miria is hand built on the LFA production line. Toyota is currently trying to raise $4 BILLION to help develop fuel cell technology - Ironically thats about how much Tesla are spending building their battery factory, difference been the first stage of the Tesla battery factory is nearly complete, and due to start production of batteries by end of 2016 (maybe the 100kWh battery packs), hydrogen fuel cell mass production is still a distant dream... http://www.hybridcar...ion-investment/ You don’t need to be genius to see which way the market is going in regards to alternative fules. BMW aren't stupid, their main focus is actually on introduction of lightweight materials such as carbon fibre into chassis production. A light weight chassis will benefit any future drivetrain technology. Don't forget the only two alternative fuel cars BMW have actually put into production is the i3/i8, neither use hydrogen fuel cell technology. Edited July 19, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 The market was all about diesel 10 years ago, now it's all turbocharged petrols. The market changes that quickly, and if Tesla can't make their cars get to mass market soon then that's not a sustainable model. As Ilogikal alluded to, if they keep bringing updates out then where's the incentive to buy a car today? I don't really think hydrogen is the future either, I'm just pointing out that the big guns aren't 100% set on elastictrickery as the solution right now. Plunging everything into that is, again, a risky move. We still have in theory 20% increase, rumours of 100kWh batteries etc. What's the real-world range on a P85S, after a couple of full-bore starts in the middle of summer when the AC is on? More power just means more usage of fuel and decreased range, whether that's an M5 or P85S. One of those has dealers in just about every big town across the EU and U.S. and the ability to increase the range in a way that electricity will never be able to manage to in my lifetime, and one has a handful of dealers worldwide with a range that drops significantly the more stuff you turn on. EVs actually make a lot of sense as a city car. As an uberbarge or GT, currently they do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWZ Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I would have been mullered at the lights last week by a Tesla Supercharger if I tried. I decided to decline as I knew he would launch it, sure thing he did. It went like a rocket...but still ugly as sin IMO. Price is wrong as well, you could get a lovely M4 and still have spends for petrol left over. Besides that have you seen where the supercharger stations are...they are so far & few between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 They really are very bland to look at. I guess that can also be a good thing too, but I suspect the designer of the Jag XF is feeling a little it smug that his design got totally ripped off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Price is wrong as well, you could get a lovely M4 and still have spends for petrol left over. Actually you could probably buy TWO M4s for the same price as a P90D L. But why would buy a M4 in the first place, it's essentially got the same engine as my old 2008 335i. Pick up a used 335i for <£10k, spend £5k on a Quaife LSD, Birds B3 suspension, a remap and your have 95% the performance of a new M3/M4....Minus the fake engine noise ofcourse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.