Ekona

Going back to this briefly, because it's a good read. And plus I'm ill, and feel like a rant. It's the whole class war that is just the biggest piece of irony I've ever seen, regarding this referendum. Working class (eesch, I hate that term!) folks have always felt like The Man is keeping them down, and making the Rich richer, so they vote to remove the bunch of people who they say as faceless, sitting in their ivory towers in Brussels making rules that keep them in their place. However, by doing so they've handed more power and control right back to the EXACT people who actually are DIRECTLY making their lives hell: The UK government. They simply don't understand how politics works. They have a basic understanding of one vote for one person, but are unable to see the results of their actions. Now, I'm fairly right wing in my political beliefs (I know, shocking news) but I'm not incapable of seeing why the left wing are required for a balanced society. I can see that cut after cut and a crude but constant slashing of benefits hasn't worked for many people, and it's annoyed them. They feel that the system doesn't work, and they see the political parties like this: - Tories are evil money grabbing b*stards who just want the rich to be richer - Labour screwed up the economy last time, no way we can trust them again. And they took us to an illegal war! - Lib Dems seemed good, but were just puppets and look what happened last time we voted for that nice bloke on the TV. - UKIP are for me! They're working class! They hate the establishment too! That Farage guy sits in his office drinking whisky and smoking cigars, I want to do that too! So they do a protest vote. Okay, I get that, but what then happens is that the one party who is on your side more than anything, which is of course Labour, no longer have enough votes to keep the Tories in check or become any kind of reasonable opposition. UKIP was never likely to get enough votes to do anything useful, and the LD are the biggest bunch of crazies in politics (okay, maybe behind the Greens). Only one party truly stands up for the lowest in society, and that's Labour. That's who they should put their trust in, but they don't because they can't understand that politics isn't black and white. Hell, there has been MASSES of legislation to protect workers coming out of the EU in the last couple of decades, and now all that protection is gone. You've given all the power directly to the Evil Tories who want to destroy the NHS and pay bankers more and make quad amputee war vets go work in a chicken packing plant 60 hours a week. In terms of a self-defeating result, this is right up there with the best of them. What we really need now is for Corbyn to go, and David Milliband to make his move for party leader. He's a good man, he understands why being far Left isn't going to work any more, and if he can come up with a more credible financial plan for the country he may even get my vote next time. Boris will almost certainly be the next PM, and Milliband 2 is the only person on the Left I can see capable of standing up to the guy. Without a strong Labour party, we'll have another Tory government in 2020 too. What's clear as anything is that the votes to leave, if they were protest votes against faceless governments, have succeeded in entrenching the very values in politics the working class wanted to avoid. Leaving the EU may well be very good for the country in the long run, and I will do everything I can to make sure it is, but at the same time it's likely to have a directly negative effect on those at the bottom of the wage triangle.

He'll be remembered as the PM who let it happen, but make no mistake it's the people of the U.K. who destroyed the unions. You get what you ask for, and in the long term it might just be for the best.

So a full recession lasts four years, but a mini recession lasts five? Negative equity is only an issue if you're planning on selling, really. I only bought last year too, but I'm not worried as I'm here for the long term.

Or stop being tight and just pay for a decent service You can get your own webspace and use that for a fraction of the cost of the paid for photobucket.

@JP: They're reasonably accepted age gaps for specific reasons, no? First lot is from voting age to mid-twenties, or what most people would call youngsters. Second lot is from the end of that up until middle-age, or your working life when you actually have a clue about what you're doing and settle down. Third group is those planning for retirement. Fourth group are the coffin dodgers. I get your point, but it seems reasonable enough to me. However, it does have it's flaws as you point out. A straightforward 10 year gap might be more helpful.

But by the same token, those with the most experience in life should know best, right? Swings and roundabouts and damn statistics.

I watched Sturgeon's press conference. As one reporter said, she'll need to have had the referendum and separated from the UK *before* the two years are up after we enable Article 50. If not, then Scotland will already have left the EU, making her job impossible. Either way, it doesn't get round the initial problems from the first Scot vote, which is that leaving the UK leaves Scotland without a currency and likely having to adopt the Euro. On top of that, for England it means that instead of having a body of water separating it from the EU, it will have a physical land connection to it which is arguably worse! Passports to head to the Highlands, anyone?

Surely this means, in theory, that Farage's job is done now. Does this mean he can disappear from our screens for good? Or is that just wishful thinking?

Cameron's statement at 8am will be interesting, as will the one from Boris no doubt following shortly after... I think what disturbs me the most has been the response from people in social media. They've either been saying that everyone has f*cked up, or they're smug as f*ck. What ever happened to losing and winning with dignity and grace?

He's one person, who won't be around for ever to push anything through on his own. It's no different to stupid people voting on the referendum based on whether they prefer Cameron or Boris: Completely irrelevant to the actual issue. No different to the PM wanting everyone to wear pink socks on Wendesdays, but the rest of the HoP vote for green socks on Fridays instead.

What do you think we are, Scottish?!

Causing issues at work for one of our guys Apparently he voted out this morning, but his missus voted in and then made the mistake of telling him. He's literally raging at her for this, and they're not even talking now :lol:

Well that's a random milestone to tick off

That's nothing to be proud of I love those seats, but I couldn't get past the side airbag lump. Still, if they were a bargain then probably better that than buying the Sportster CS seats and fitting those, that would be a fair bit more hassle.

Hart should be captain, the way he belts out encouragement in the tunnel is brilliant to watch.

Why can't England ever play with that kind of passion when it really matters? Even if the Oirish had gone out tonight, you'd still have praised them for giving everything.

I'm going to draw a picture of Trump on my vote, and tick that. That'll mess with their heads.

Perfectly plausible. Even the easiest jobs can be a massive PITA if things start going downhill. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. 8 hours would bd a p*sstake, but 4 is on the edge of believable.

:lol:

Here's a what-if scenario for you all... Let's say we vote Leave. Cameron steps down next year, which leaves Boris as a shoo-in for the party leadership. Nothing will happen on leaving the EU on our side until then, so that gives Boris three years as PM. Now, he'll most certainly want to carry on being PM and win the GE in 2020, so how best to achieve that? Certainly not by alienating voters on the Left any more than he has to, given they'll already have plenty of ammo aimed at him. His own party will back him and he's adored by UKIP voters too, so no fear of annoying them regardless. So how does he win the centre-Left? Well, one way could be to make some nice concessions to the EU in terms of the withdrawal agreement and/or trade negotiations. Just enough to keep the Left not completely hating him, but not enough so he looks weak. Now I like Boris, and I'd love him as PM, but he's also incredibly shrewd and clever. He'll do whatever it takes to keep hold of power, and he won't rock the markets any more than he has to to achieve his goals. I'm not saying this is a guarantee, but at the same time I don't for one second expect him to keep a hardline over this. Political suicide.

But yes, a very true point JP.

Black, obviously.

Laid back? Perhaps. I'm certainly tired of the same circular arguments. If we leave, we'll do the easiest thing to get things rolling and back on track to help preserve whatever state our financial markets are in. What's the best way of doing that? By copying exactly what we had before, with a few token tweaks. That's why I started out on the Leave side about 3 years ago, moved to Remain in the last 12 months, and now I don't think it'll matter either way as there's no political will to *really* change anything. The EU are quite happy as things stand, our government system is broken because Corbyn is the worst Labour leader in my lifetime, and no-one really wants to drag things out any longer than they have to. That's not apathy, that's the real world. People are proclaiming these great changes, on both sides of the argument, when in reality great changes are not only politically impossible but also do not really benefit anyone. The people of this country cannot get their head around the fact that we need to massively cut spending to reduce our debt. You really think they're capable of deciphering, much less arguing the pros and cons, of the TTIP? I don't. The public as a rule are stupid, hence them believing half the spin on both sides of the EU argument.

I'm really not apathetic, I have incredibly passionate views when it comes to UK politics. However, in this case I can't see HOW anything would change! We need immigration levels where they are, if not higher. We'd need to follow EU rules to trade anyway. We'll still end up with the TTIP. We'll end up in the exact same place, just with no seat at the table and billions of pounds in lawyer fees down. Remind me again why we should leave?

We will have TTIP whether we stay or go. No reasonable person can possibly expect otherwise. The more I think about this whole thing, the more convinced I am that absolutely nothing will change regardless of the outcome. However, if we do vote to leave I'm going to start practicing my "I told you so!" speech.