sipar69

No I don't disagree with that. But remember as humans were we would kill (and we still do) immorally. We used to kill one another for food or power. Our Neanderthal ancestors had no moral code. We are still even now finding ourselves we still make mistakes and we aren't always right or make the right decisions. I honestly believe that the introduction of religious beliefs and structures of the past have enhanced humanity and taught us to behave in the way we do now. This may well have happened independently but I think moral code has had a lot of influence on our development as a race. We are still a young race. I don't believe people are born evil or bad so it is teachable for sure. I don't disagree with anything anyone has said in this thread and I am not trying to convince anyone that I have the answers or indeed that mine make any sense. As I said it is personal and how you apply your beliefs. The main religions have all stemmed from the same place so there is a link we are all brothers/cousins of one another in terms of religion. It's a shame so many people like to hide behind it and believe they are better than others unfortunately that is just a human condition. People also twist things to suit an agenda, unfairly tarring a group with the brush of crazy evil ans extremists. It does make me sad that they would take something so positive and turn it to something megalomaniacal. Even even if you were to ban religion people would still end up choosing to believe in something that could arguably be non rational. Heck even small tribes in the middle of nowhere with little western or religious influence have a belief structure of some kind. Perhaps it is a human trait? Perhaps there's something within us, a soul? That drives us to believe in something? I don't know. There is no right or wrong answer in my eyes. Anyway I want to thank you all for being so kind and patient about my views. I know to a lot of you it is rather lol worthy and I don't find myself disappointed or upset at that. However you have very generously offered me fair and kind comments. It really is appreciated. Anyway back to Zeds... Anyone want to help cure me of my Zeditis? It seems to transcend all beliefs and religions! Be nice if people on both sides of the argument expressed themselves like this - I don't agree with most of what you say but I like the way you say it Interesting point about morals but do we really know that ancient people had no morals before they could conceptualise religion? Not morals as we understand them now but ways of learning to live alongside one another etc. Moral philosophy is a very interesting topic - I did some at university - unfortunately I've forgotten most of it now

I kinda like the much more ancient types of religion you see on documentaries where people worshiped a particular animal or star. Something quite nice and innocent about that (except all the sacrifices). I can see myself as a disciple of anything involving cats.

wmr180 I respect your views but I would say that when I see charity, compassion etc I'm seeing the best sides of human nature. I don't think we have to look for alternative sources and perhaps by doing so we lessen the meaning of the acts by transferring the motivation away from the person and onto a (fictional in my view) higher power. Can't we just celebrate that people are capable of very moral and selfless acts?

Great forum this. Loads of useful advice. I think I've decided to close one and keep the other but not use it. I've got a few other forms of credit that I can use to keep up a good payment record e.g. the Z. Thanks everyone.

Thread still going I see and still nobody's responded to the point about how unfavourable the main organised religions are to women compared to men (unless I've missed it). It's good to see that there have been some rational responses in defence of religion, but I wish people would try to get the message that Atheism is an absence of belief. Anti-theism is the most appropriate term for being anti-religion.

Thanks everyone.

Cheers Flex - perhaps the answer is to keep one and close the other.....

Cheers - I'll look into that. I do keep an eye on my score via Experian but it's pretty expensive (and I'm aware there are other agencies).

Cheers for that Wasso and glrnet Tarmac - that's rough luck mate.

I think they're supposed to be pretty loud. Whether that's a problem probably depends on your circumstances - if my Stillen and HFCs are anything to go by you get the most volume on a cold start. I don't think my set up is especially loud when it's warmed up but the sound on start up probably wouldn't make me very popular with the neighbours if the car was my daily driver.

Anyone here work in the financial sector or know a lot about how settled credit cards affect credit records? I had a really good feeling yesterday when I paid off my two cards completely and chopped them up, as I really don't need them. Looking online there seems to be a lot of conflicting information about whether it's best for your credit record to keep unused credit card accounts open or close them. Any ideas?

Nope. The fact that I don't believe in the existence of god doesn't mean it's wrong to take holidays to which everyone is entitled to, not just people of certain religions. Similarly, I can't imagine going to work tomorrow and telling my Muslim team member that she has to work over Christmas and that she can't come to the office party I've heard people in the past having a jab at atheists for having time off at Christmas and joining in the festivities, but it's an incredibly simplistic and naive argument. Every single person in the world could be accused of hypocrisy in many different ways e.g. care about the environment? - Don't have kids or drive a nice car then; feel bad for the poor in Africa - give away all your money and possessions to help them then.....etc ad infinitum. When I take time off at Christmas, eat nice food, drink too much and spend time with people I care about I'm not celebrating the birth of Jesus, I'm just choosing to have a good time that coincides with a lot of other people doing the same thing, some of whom are religious and some of whom aren't. What I certainly wouldn't do is slag off people who were choosing to celebrate the religious aspects of it - my problem is with religion in general, not people of faith. I asked the question that's all, I personally despise the commercialism of Christmas, it is about as far away from a religious celebration as you can get I treat people as people not on colour, race, religion or anything else, there are bigots of all types around, doesn't matter if you believe in an afterlife, life is too short for hatred I know you did mate - I didn't think you were making a point.

Nope. The fact that I don't believe in the existence of god doesn't mean it's wrong to take holidays to which everyone is entitled to, not just people of certain religions. Similarly, I can't imagine going to work tomorrow and telling my Muslim team member that she has to work over Christmas and that she can't come to the office party I've heard people in the past having a jab at atheists for having time off at Christmas and joining in the festivities, but it's an incredibly simplistic and naive argument. Every single person in the world could be accused of hypocrisy in many different ways e.g. care about the environment? - Don't have kids or drive a nice car then; feel bad for the poor in Africa - give away all your money and possessions to help them then.....etc ad infinitum. When I take time off at Christmas, eat nice food, drink too much and spend time with people I care about I'm not celebrating the birth of Jesus, I'm just choosing to have a good time that coincides with a lot of other people doing the same thing, some of whom are religious and some of whom aren't. What I certainly wouldn't do is slag off people who were choosing to celebrate the religious aspects of it - my problem is with religion in general, not people of faith.

SO AM I AN ATHEIST? No. - Atheism is an absence of belief in god. - Anti-theism is a bit like turbo charged atheism - you don't believe in god and argue that religion is a negative force - responsible for more bad than good - wars, controlling women, preserving the interests of some over others (The rich man in his castle,the poor man at his gate, god made them high and lowly, and ordered their estate.....) - What you've described is closer to Agnosticism - unsure, on the fence etc.

Nobody who thinks it's wrong to criticise religion willing to address the point about women? Islam is too easy a target so here's an example from Judaism: According to the Bible [aka the word of God], a woman is impure for seven days from the beginning of her menstrual flow (Lev. 12:2; 15:19). Anyone who touches a menstruous woman becomes unclean until evening (Lev. 15:19). Whoever touches her bed or anything she sits on during the week is unclean until evening and must wash his clothes and bathe with water (vss. 20-23). Funny how all these sorts of rules and restrictions seem to apply to women.....cover yourself, don't wear make up, serve your husband.....I wonder if that's because they were written by men. How convenient that the will of God seems to be so favourable to men.....

That might explain why everyone who walks past the car has to have a look at the badge to see what it is Looking forward to seeing pictures of yours soon.

I've actually got my own remote firing kit. I think it's a 32 bank. Made my own rocket launching device a few years ago. 10 rocket tubes on a rack, wired up to my remote unit along with 22 other fireworks and sit back and relax just pressing buttons. It even has a special key, just to make you feel like a right pyromaniac!! Would love to get back into it again but fireworks have doubled in price over the last two years. Sounds like something the Russians used in WW2

I've actually got my own remote firing kit. I think it's a 32 bank. Made my own rocket launching device a few years ago. 10 rocket tubes on a rack, wired up to my remote unit along with 22 other fireworks and sit back and relax just pressing buttons. It even has a special key, just to make you feel like a right pyromaniac!! Would love to get back into it again but fireworks have doubled in price over the last two years. Sounds like something the Russians used in WW2

Come on then, impress us all with a really good contribution

Actually, I mentioned subjugation of women in my first post, which is a similar theme. I can think of a number of religions which seem to to treat women as second class citizens and try to control them. Coldel - Fair point - I've got no problem with people who practice their faith without trying to tell the rest of us what to do. Some of us are criticising religion in general rather than people who have religious beliefs. It's not the same.

Don't forget that atheism is a lack of belief in something. Aethism has no doctrine or core set of values; for example, not every aetheist will be a strong believer in the power of science like Richard Dawkins. All organised religions have some form of doctrine, so it would be very diffiucult to argue that Hitler, Stalin were defined or motivated in any way by aetheism (I appreciate you were being humerous). They wanted people to put all their faith in them and the vision they were peddling - The Reich etc. They didn't want people to be distracted by other influences such as religion. So aethism / secularism was useful to them, rather than motivating their actions. And of course there have been many dictators who were openly religious and many Kings, Queens etc who have used their 'divine right' to do very bad things to many people.

I think only one person has suggested banning them. It's definitely not a matter of days where I live - more like a fortnight with a peak that lasts about a week. If people enjoy fireworks fine - I personally don't but I accept that there is a time of year when other people want to use them. It would just be good if it didn't go on for so long. People who don't own pets probably wonder what all the fuss is about but I hate seeing our cats cowering about in fear for at least a week. They're part of the family after all.

I read on a few sites that the next Z will have a targa top. (And yes I know that's probably complete speculation but it was an interesting thought.....) Do we think there will even be a next Z? I hope so.

In a way, this thread is a good example of how religion exerts control. It's one of the great tricks of some religions - tell people they must have faith in something for which there is no proof and come down on anyone who dares to criticise. It's not appropriate to be deliberately offensive or incite hate, but that's a very different thing to not expressing a rational opinion because someone might claim to be offended by it. It's fine to criticise religion in a free country as long as it's done in a rational way; just as it's fine to criticise atheism.

We get them all around here, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Born again Christians, all on a mission to convert our little Close, Sunday mornings they come in droves..!! Get one of these mate - we got one last year - not had a single cold caller since. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stop-Cold-Calling-Door-Sticker/dp/B008ACETRU/ref=sr_1_1/277-4102850-6080650?ie=UTF8&qid=1415695435&sr=8-1&keywords=no+cold+callers