coldel

Pretty sure there will be some concessions around it though, won’t be a case if “welcome back as you were”

I would agree with Dan that it is a job, it's not something where people martyr themselves on the fire for the good of everyone else, they still have families to support bills to pay etc. That said there is a public expectation they should be paid pittance, try watching 'The Thick of It' and a scene when new MP Nicola Murray arrives in her office and orders a new chair and has strips torn off her by Tucker the communications director who states that the chair has to go, when he finds out that she plans to send her daughter to a private school he makes he send her to a comp instead...because the public will it, even though she could afford it. In terms of qualifications, most MPs are qualified (over half) in social sciences unsurprisingly. Something like one eighth are qualified in law.

You are generalising on a large scale based on your own prejudices. All the information you need to help you answer the question 'are people like you an MP' is available - I don't know who you are so cannot answer that for you. But then again what do you mean by that? If we all had that view we would need hundreds of thousands if not millions of MPs to fully 'represent me' as there are thousands of types of people that are not you or even in your social/economic/political bracket. People feel unrepresented because they make sweeping assumptions about MPs, they have never bothered to go actually meet and speak to theirs, that they lump all MPs into some pot the second a negative media report pops up about one faking a speeding ticket etc. Clearly the party's attract a different person to their party, Labour for instance have 65% of their MPs from comprehensive schools, just 20% are from the privileged universities (which disproves above generalisations). If you so keenly want 'people like me' representing you then you should be voting Labour. What is clear though is that being an MP requires a number of skills many people do not have, and if you have those skills you will in all likelihood be paid a lot less as an MP than in the private sector.

Why do you mistrust politicians? What is it exactly that makes you not trust them? The fact they haven't come to a consensus on brexit is not because they are being mistrustful, its completely the opposite that they are so far apart in their ideals that they religiously follow they literally cannot come to a consensus. JRM, as much as I detest the ideals he has which belong in the 1960's, is committed to his beliefs on politics. Not being able to implement brexit is not through a lack of trust, its the political system which voters actively placed the process within i.e. parliament. I am sure there are politicians on the make, like people in any industry. But do bear in mind that with the education many of them have, they could step into much better paid roles than being an MP, £80k is not a big amount of money for someone who is a highly qualified business leader for example, a CEO/MD of a successful business would be paid hugely in excess of that.

To be honest Doc, I would think at least a third of the UK votes in any election without the blindest clue as to what they are voting for, but would happily invest hours of time researching the best microwave oven they can get for a budget of £50 using comparison sites and what not.

To be honest at £10k you are looking at alternatively getting a slightly higher mileage HR or potentially a 370z with circa 70k miles on it.

Feels overpriced for me (definitely was at circa £13k!), how many miles do you actually drive? If you do say 20k a year in it then in a couple of years it will be worth £5k as aside from the miles its just a normal Zed which can be had for £5k-£6k. Or you planning on locking it away and keeping it for the long run?

From webmd, sounds like its more likely to be around 1/3rd of a years worth up to around 3 years worth depending on what is being scanned. These scans expose you to more radiation than other imaging tests, like X-rays and mammograms. For example, one chest CT scan delivers the amount in 100 to 200 X-rays. That might sound like a lot, but the total amount you get is still very small. It’s important to know that everyone is exposed to ionizing radiation every day, just from natural radioactive material in their surroundings. In a year, the average person gets about 3 millisieverts (mSv), the units that scientists use to measure radiation. Each CT scan delivers 1 to 10 mSv, depending on the dose of radiation and the part of your body that's getting the test. A low-dose chest CT scan is about 1.5 mSv. The same test at a regular dose is about 7 mSv.

Seconded

Which is their democratic right. But as Doc says, as this party has no plan or approach, those that do vote for them should not complain if the resulting process is poorly executed or claim its undemocratic to challenge it.

That is democracy, as defined by this country. Sorry it doesn't stand up to your view on what it should be, but that is what it is. On the whole most parties/MPs stick by manifestos which people vote for, but in exceptional circumstances (which this is) MPs can change tact, that is the democratic right of an MP, they are not delegates of those who voted for them (hence the importance of understanding the difference). Of course the power a voter then has is to not vote for them again, so for an MP to change tact means they have such a strong belief that one of their mandates outweighs the others that they are literally willing to give up their seat. But that's again democracy in play, the power is in parliament and the MPs that stand there, that's what Leave voted for.

That is sovereignty and democracy in play. Democracy dictates that people vote for an MP who then acts as a representative, not a delegate(and the distinction is important), in the house of commons. They typically have three mandates which are to represent all the people of the constituency, the party and the country. They do not have equal weighting. Democracy does not dictate that this MP cannot change their opinion, nor does democracy dictate they cannot go against the party/constituency if they feel the need of the country is greater as they serve all three mandates. Of course the constituency can vote them out, but that is the risk the MP plays. This is often not clearly understood by voters who think MP's only have one mandate - they have three and often the weighting changes, the direction changes so on and so forth. Ordering or expecting MP's to do something that is against their freedom to express what they represent, is in effect what you would see in a Putin style 'democracy'

Exactly what Docwra is saying though via Piranhas, the landscape changes, therefore political policy changes and each taken on each of its merits. The country put a vote out there to leave the EU, not to leave under no deal, not to leave with a deal, not to leave as a customs union - just to leave. Ultimately the outcome of the vote has been actioned and we have signalled intention to leave, the process is in play, it could take decades as many on remain side predicted. But to go to the original point, is the current squabbling and political positioning undemocratic, not in the slightest. It is in fact the process we are seeing that was the underlying reason Leave won which was to give sovereignty to our parliament, that doesn't guarantee they will do what you want though and we all have to live with this now.

But if they sat and focused on the backstop at the cost of progressing everything else we would have no deal at all, no progression and Leavers would be complaining that politicians are not doing their job. The limbo is there because, as was mentioned all along, leaving isn't easy. There are also various versions of leaving that even leavers cannot agree on, some want one thing other want something else. Parliament could do nothing more than activate A50 and allow process to ensue, this could take decades to unravel. As for trusting some untrustworthy's, that was what was voted for, that we would bring sovereignty back to the UK via autonomous decision making parliament, so here we are, this is what was voted for.

So my question still stands, taking away the NI issue, what is it about the exit deal that you believe at the highest level is not achieving an exit from the EU? Parliament knew the issue was there, but if they hadn't activated A50 what then? What alternative course of action would you think they should have taken?

Well given I am in the middle of a mid life crisis and thinking of other roles I might just give it a go, I will of course claim rights to the Piranha analogy, it's genius

You are entitled to disagree, but it doesn't make what you are saying true either. If the Northern Ireland issue was not there, MP's would have voted through the exit deal and we would be on the way and any diversionary talk of more votes etc would be on the back burner. So that beggars the question, what is it for you about the deal offered that was not acceptable as an exit from the EU? Because I presume at that highest level you mention TM is creating a deal (excluding the Backstop) which doesn't achieve an exit?

So are you saying that political, economic and social landscapes sometimes change which dictate that formerly agreed process becomes redundant and to stick with it would prove painful and ultimately not result in the expected explosion of satisfaction?

You are assuming that politics are looking to thwart leaving, that is not a fact, you are guessing. What I see happening is that the inevitable large divisional splits in parliament at the moment, with parties moving further from the centre than in the last 20 years, is that concession on an agreement is almost impossible. The vote to leave won, it did not dictate though that we leave under any circumstances, that was handed to parliament/sovereignty which is what was voted for. Remainers said a lot of things in the lead up to the vote but some which were consistent were that it wouldn't be easy, that the EU would make it difficult, that parliament wouldn't be able to agree on a way out, that global economics is bigger than our island. Anyone saying that was told they were pessimistic, even told they were anti-UK. Those voting Leave were saying it would be easy (roll in DD and LF with endless quotes) - you are making a massive assumption that politics is against leaving because we were told it would be easy, but they are not, they are against each other and always have been. Politicians on the whole are not against leaving (unless you are a LibDem) but they are against each other, but Leavers voted for this process to begin in this way, so here you have it. But one thing it isn't, is undemocratic.

Toss something left field into the ring, Elise/Exige/VX220. No petrolhead should get through life without having owned one. Brutally fast, proper race car feel and more looks than you would ever get in a common as muck 911 or the like You do need to be good at getting in and out on your hands and knees though

Most remainers stated stats and figures as a way of trying to understand the challenge, something leavers didn't face into because it weakened the debate. Leavers coined the phrase 'remoaners' and used it repeatedly so in terms of name calling, both sides are guilty by some margin. Remainers it seemed tried to understand the economic and financial impact, leavers went from a political angle of sovereignty and as we saw politics were more important than financial stability to more of those that voted. Thats the crux of why a vote went the way it did not because leaving made more sense. I actually think democracy is 100% what is playing out right now, if remain had won 52% to 48% would that be the end of it or would we still have Farage and co. looking to continue to derail the continued membership. I would have fully expected the latter, because that's the democratic right of any political group to state their will. Personally I am not up for another vote, but I do object to rolling all opposition to leaving into the 'undemocratic' argument as that is patently false and typical of the rhetoric we saw on the sides of buses and the like.

Just going to pop this here

Enjoy everyone, if it was any other weekend I would be there! Unfortunately bank holiday weekend on half term means holiday away with the family nowadays

The only video I could find of me testing out my milltek+berks combo! https://youtu.be/Q7uCWs_-mQE

...is that people are less capable of actually driving the things with any sort of common sense. Jeez Louise. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48246027