The G Man

No you are taking it out of context, it is the only way of ensuring that Scotland remains a member of the EU, by whatever negotiation is needed. The UK government, or rather the political party that is in charge at the moment, is committed to a referendum to leave, this is something that Scotland does not want, so the only way of ENSURING we stay in is independence. I thought that was an obvious point, happy to clarify So how do you know Scotland will be extended the offer of membership when Iceland and Turkey havent? This is the question Im asking that seems to have been avoided for the last two pages, this is what I want to know. I know, 100%, cast iron, first article, etc, that if the UK rejects the referendum to leave the EU we will remain members. How do you know that an independent Scotland will become an EU member to the point that "its the only way of ENSURING" you stay in? In short, Turkey and Iceland are not part of member states at the moment Scotland is, and, for various financial and political reasons, Turkey will find it harder and harder. Iceland not so. On your second point, it's obvious. To Jetpilot After watching several dozen debacles, from new IT systems at the MOD, education changes every other week, Clegg to the bus lane on a motorway debacle, Donald Trump is the least of anyone's worries

It's about self determination, not Alex Salmond or the SNP, why is that so difficult to understand. How many jobs would go in the UK if it were to leave the EU?, 100'S of thousands, from all parts I'm continually astounded by the lack of understanding on the self determination front, but do understand that it is anyone's right to vote no. On anouther point earlier on, someone made the assertion as to what would Scotland do with no DVLA etc and other big UK institutions that are not based in Scotland, well what will the rest of the UK do if we just keep all the nuclear subs? That's a non starter of an idea, hopefully you get that. Also, The Common Weil is only a basis to form some sort of constitution, not the be all and end all, show me where the UK's constitution is or can be accessed, no you can't because there isn't one, Westminster deems it unnecessary, and so can railroad things through parliament that leaves you, me and the man next door with no recourse. What is the alternative to self determination for Scotland? Osborne gave his ideas yesterday, I'm sorry but the "No" campaign have put no vision of an alternative to the "Yes" campaign other than the status quo, seriously, is that the best thing for Scotland

No you are taking it out of context, it is the only way of ensuring that Scotland remains a member of the EU, by whatever negotiation is needed. The UK government, or rather the political party that is in charge at the moment, is committed to a referendum to leave, this is something that Scotland does not want, so the only way of ENSURING we stay in is independence. I thought that was an obvious point, happy to clarify

Wow, that's great, if I come along, I'm gonna play this Only kidding, Midge is still smarting from this.

Yes, Spain isn't to keen on the idea, they think it'll spark independence calls and maybe more violence from several separatist movements within Spain. Whatever, Scotland will enter The E.U on the current member states terms, not on their own, same for any new E.U country really. Pete That's at least a start, at least we'll have a representative to negotiate fishing rights, undeniable energy wealth and a few other things that is a beginning of a negotiation, at present, we have no representation other than Rupert and Rodders from Hertfordshire

You're wrong on both counts, The UK only exists if Scotland stay in the UNITED KINGDOMS of Scotland and England, both acts of Union are an adjoinment of parliaments not Kingdoms, or States. Great Britain will remain, as this is a geographic reference, hence Great Britain (the main bit that includes Wales) and Northern Ireland. Cameron, will succumb to the pressure his party and the rest of the right of centre vote who will demand.it. He may not be around in 2017, but he did commit to it, all he needs is a majority in Westminster, which he'll get if and when Scotland leave The Union. You're 100% correct in saying he may change his mind, because mainly, he has no morals but predominately because he's a politician. His party won't when faced with the threat of UKIP, Labour and the great disenfranchised vote that is the Lib Dem party ( c'mon the students). In the shires, he's toast if he doesn't carry it through, not that he'll mind, he'll still go on enjoying rank and privilege through the system that is rotten and one I want to distance my country from. I don't know, we are such pests, subsidy junkies and general alcoholic tramps that infest the streets of London, why would any Unionist want to keep Scotland part of a "United Kingdom"? Beats me

Very unappealing to the eye, never seen one before though

Impossible, we have a monopoly on that, we get it 13 months out of 12

Sheer fantasy and not very constructive, IMO, shows scant understanding of UK politics and none on Scottish politics, with no economic intellect whatsoever. I'm sorry to see as well that you are the only taxpayer in the UK, keep up the good work

See above

Youre making a massive assumption that the EU will extend membership to an independent Scotland though ............. and thats my main issue with this. Everything Ive seen from Salmond has been assumption (oil and gas income, armed forces, retaining Sterling) rather than set in stone definites, and as such I think a fair proportion of those with the choice are being mislead somewhat. No I'm stating a fact, conservative England will hold a referendum into leaving the EU in 2017, Cameron is committed to this, this will be supported by UKIP, BNP and disgruntled labour voters (the Liberal party will not exist by then). You do not understand the Act of Union, it was only a union of Parliaments that, if dissolved, leave both England and Scotland as autonomous Countries, not regions as is the supposition of UK Unionist parties that base Scotland, seeking to be part of the EU. There is more to this than meets the eye, this is where when discussing Catalans bid for independence the EU says if it happens then, as a REGION, automatic entry is not on the cards, Scotland is in a different position, that's fact.

Just to be absolutely clear on this, I don't care what the nationality of anyone running an Independent Scotland is, English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, just not American ( ), for me and those with a deeper understanding, the debate is not about being independent from the English, more independent from Westminster and all that goes with a crumbling political system that contains very little democracy. Definately the last word, or words,....Death to the French

Have a read at the link That's definitely my last word, no wait......sharabong (sung in a pub singer style voice)

I am hearing this comment a lot (like martin, I live/work in Scotland for 6 months of the year) and most people cannot back up that statement with any facts. Which (in my opinion) makes it a complete ridiculous statement to make. Can't be any worse?! Are you kidding? What happens if you have to start paying for prescriptions, or your taxes are raised to account for shortfalls in govt. budgets, or if the new Scottish Health Service has to be paid for by Insurance, or the Oil Majors decide it would be cheaper to route North Sea oil South of the border..... It could be much much worse than it is now. I've lived here for 50 odd years, happy to present facts mate, in person, face to face, not on a subjective car forum. Far too complicated an issue for most, but more so when there is scant understanding of the nature of the debate, a comment aimed at a large minority of Scots as well as the majority of English members on here. What I will say though is that, all the institutions that are bandied about as being "new" institutions to set up in an Independent Scotland are, in part, by their nature, part owned by every part of the UK. Also as a committed European, being in an Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU. We're not having a referendum, or a promised one on that here, only Westminster Conservatism and UKIP are striving for that. That alone takes us to a whole new level of debate. Having served in HM Forces and having seen the efforts that the UK went to in using them to offer other non autonomous regions their independence, with the cost of several thousand lives, a peaceful, negotiated referendum for the people of Scotland is welcomed and so should a Yes vote, just as a No vote would be abided by. Having lived in an area that has only ever known administration from Westminster based political parties (for this read mostly Labour), I can tell you that they are abysmal, more interested in the Westminster bubble or the party "politik" than any region of the UK. For me, for many reasons, the facts stick out and make it a no brainer. I may not see the full benefit, but hopefully my children and grandchildren will. This is what I'm after http://reidfoundation.org/common-weal/ Written by a foundation set up in the memory of Jimmy Reid of Red Clydesider fame. It would be lovely for this country as a whole, UK, to stay together, but it's unworkable in it's present political guise, for the majority of all the UK regions. As for those that think that this is about Alex Salmond and the SNP, it's patently obvious that it's not. All I've heard so far from better together or "Project Fear" as they call themselves, is negative rhetoric that Scotland and its people are not competent to govern themselves, and that there will be a terrible backlash from every other nation on earth if we had the temerity to go it alone. Great, magic, but jings, crivvens, help ma' Boab, watch out Scotland if "Project Fear" wins. My last word, haironyertaj!

'kin 'ell Neil, you'll huv me greetin in ma craitur

Firstly, happy impending Ne'rday to one and all Secondly, it's always been a tradition for most Scottish households to have "Hot Peas" with some other food on Hogmany, my personal favourite is Scotch pies So, steep dried peas overnight, don't forget to pop one of them giant Bicarb pills in that come with the packet of peas, boil up a ham hough (bit of a pigs leg), add reconstituted peas and slowly simmer for an hour, season to taste, hmmmmm, Serve, either on their own with pepper and vinegar or with said pies, fart-tastic. So just about to sit down with Mrs G and serve her up one of life's gourmet delicacies from HoopHoo Land Tomorrow, traditional steakpie with the family for dinner, doesn't have to be a fancy one, everyone is pished anyway , get more pished and enjoy the new year. So, what do YOU do on Hogmany?

It's a minefield on this topic, there are so many options. While I use HDMI cables from BR and Virgin box to the telly, this is only for picture quality, the sound is sent by FO to the amps, yep two, one for purely AV sound (specific Teufel system, very powerful over a wide range and reasonably inexpensive), the other for music (Technics (must be 15 years old now), who don't make it anymore apparently only DJ turntables) but can produce great DTS/5.1 or at a later stage 7.1. Speaker system and AV amp are slightly over capacity, (35 m/sq), but it's important to take room size and shape into consideration. Detached living has it's advantages I have no idea on the whole, but research is the best thing, try some AV forums, good info there

Fantastically run site, innovative, modern and now with a great Team to ensure smooooth running Big happy birthday to all who gave us this forum, (also got the best looking Moderating Team in Forum Land , fact! Pass it on )

Moved this for ya, I think! 350 related

Nice Neil First I've seen the new graphics buddy

Right then, just woke up, why is no one talking to me??

You are in for a treat, rugby wise, that Welsh whisky though, I lost 2 days at Le Mans drinking that Stick with the Double Wood

Doesn't get any better, Mrs on her works night oot, staying at the hotel it's in, only daughter not to have moved out yet, working, Heineken Cup on telly, drinking Double Espresso beer (?, but nice), other exotics in the fridge (beer that is, not dancing girls), Indian take away just delivered, movie or two later, on max sub and speaker volume and, on my own :yahoo: Now one of two things is going to happen, I get tipsy with a full belly and conk out, or, I get tipsy, with a full belly and manage to stay awake Living the dream boys n girls, living the dream

Sounds like a good trip, in my experience, going from the Ring to say, round about the Lake Como area is a 400-500 mile drive, now if you're planning to take a partner/wife/girlfriend/blow up doll, I would take at least an overnight or 2 night break on the way down. Reason behind this is even on an early start, you'll get into the Alps, late afternoon, by that time you'll be pretty kanackered and the ladies will not enjoy it and neither will you. These are great trips to do, but I would stick to 250 max on driving days, take 2/3 night breaks between driving/exploring the passes, I've spent a few 12 hr Alpine drives, wishing I had stopped earlier, like 8 hrs earlier. Just a thought, if you're a driving monster then go for it in a one'r, but after a track day as well.... Any of the Lakes are a great base, but Italy is HUGE, even from the Lakes to Bolognia or Modena is a fair old treck. Also, plan the return trip as detailed as the outward one, been there on an evening on an Autobahn, with heavy German traffic, can be very congested, I would come back up through France. Just pointers for you to take regard of if anyone wants to take you up on the trip and takes along partners

Yup me! Went for a jolly before work this morning, got good mpg there as well